The Irish in WW2

[Mike T]

In honour of St Patrick's Day, I'd like to ask the question of what roles the Irish played in WW2. For example, I remember watching a movie about Allied fliers as well as German fliers and sailors bieng interned in the Irish Republic during the war and I was wondering how many Irish fought for the British during the war and how many fought for the Germans. Any thoughts?

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'Bitter Mike'

[Guest PeterNZ]

I believe the republic was neutral during the war, and the north probably saw many recruits off to fight queen and country?

PeterNZ

[Guest JonS]

... maybe to fight FOR King and Country? Though, with the Irish, its always hard to tell ... too much Guiness does strange things to a man...

[This message has been edited by JonS (edited 03-16-2000).]

[Fionn]

Hmm, I would prefer to fight Queen and country than FOR the Queen and country (since THAT particular country isn't mine).

As always lots of Irishmen went off to fight for the British although, thankfully, this time, political imperatives in the British High Command didn't make it desirable for them to bleed Irish formations white to "get rid of troublemakers" as the British consciously did in WW1.

[Lee]

Do Irish soldiers get a combat modifier bonus if they have eaten

Lucky Charms within 3 hours before the fight?

[dumbo]

I dont know about Irish army volunteers but there are two facts I do know of.

1.) Ireland refused to allow British ships to use fueling points and ports on the west coast of Ireland and cost Allied lives as a result. In particular the bases at Queenstown (Cobh) and Logh Swilly were sorely missed. Ironically the results of this action were that supply ships bound for Neutral ireland were lost as well.

2.) Irish volunteered to serve in the RAF to help the British and served distinction during the battle of Britian. Although this support never reached the level of the ever couragous Poles it was a useful contribution as trained pilots were in short supply.

Note that I am talking about volunteers from the south here. As usual the British citizens from Northern Ireland put everything on the line to serve thier country.

The Republic in the south was an independent country and had no obligation to help out the British ,besides it had no military with which to aid anyhow and its people were still weary from its civil war (and I do mean its civil war as well as its struggle for independence) which left a massive scar on the new Irish states phyche.

Btw as far as I know and Donald sutherland movies aside no irish actually fought for the Germans. There may have been a handful of pro german spies but given the almost complete failure of German spys in Britian in WW2 its safe to say that the Republican movement did not embrace Hitler as a way to spite the British. They may not have liked the old King & Country but they werent dumb enough to think Hitler was a good plan.

Oh yeah I forgot to mention that one shouldnt forget the Irish American GI's many of whome were immigrants born in Ireland.

[This message has been edited by dumbo (edited 03-16-2000).]

[Spook]

I believe recalling that a good number of US troops and air units coming over for the invasion buildup either passed through Ireland or were temporarily based there too. Some aircraft repair depots were set up there too. Out of curiosity, is it known whether these troops were constrained to making port or deploying only in Northern Ireland?

And a trivia question for Fionn: where abouts in Ireland do you live now?

[Fionn]

Those units were constrained to the North of Ireland as the South was neutral.

Dumbo...

Aye, Brit and other ships were banned from using Irish ports in the SAME way they were banned from using ports in other neutral countries since, if they had been allowed to use the ports then Ireland WOULDN'T have been neutral would it?

Also, the British had a preliminary plan to invade Ireland during the early war years and you have to remember that Ireland had only gotten rid of an extremely oppresive regime through the fighting of a rather brutal guerilla war barely 20 years earlier against these same guys who were now looking to dock their ships in our ports AND threatening to invade and subjugate us.

The situation was a LOT more complex than it might appear... E.g. Our declaration of Independence was signed in 1916. In 1940 only ONE of the signatories was still alive and he was our Taoiseach (equivalent to the US President). What had happened to the other signatories? They had ALL been shot by the British government including men too sick to stand (and shot in their wheelchairs) and women.

If I was him I would have refused too. A country can't butcher your populace one day and ask for favours the next.

[MikeT]

I once asked my English mother about this one. We were watching a movie about a plot to kill Churchill, forgot name now. (There was an Irish main character played by Donald Sutherland that worked with the Germans.)

Basically it seemed to work this way. There are two types of Irish. The Catholic Irish which see themselves as the true Irish, with some reason. There there is the Proestant Irish which are descendants of Englishmen that were sent there hundreds of years ago to turn Ireland into an English country. I think it was King Henry that did that bit. That seems to be the whole problem in Ireland. The Catholics see the non-catholics as not being Irish even though they have lived there for 500 years or so.

Now some Catholic Irish followed the old enemy of my enemy rule and worked with the Germans. It seems that most Proestant Irish, being related to the English and seeing themselves as English in many ways, worked with the King's army and fought with them.

MikeT

[Spook]

Hmmmmm. It seems you opted not to answer my question inquiring on your relative neighborhood, Fionn.

Well, that's personal info, so it's perfectly understandable if you prefer not to mention on this forum. (I didn't realize you made that many enemies, ) I expressed my question out of curiosity as I have relatives living on the western Irish coast (Sligo).

My hope is to visit them sometime this year or next, but at my age, the best laid plans fall apart much too easily.

[Fionn]

Mike T,

That's a VERY simplified and in many ways incorrect view of the situation. Suffice it to say that during Ww1 and WW2 tens of thousands of Irishmen (both Catholic and Protestant) served in the British Army..

There were sufficient of them to actually form entire "Irish" divisions to give you some idea of the scale.

BTW the movie you were watching starred Michael Caine and was called "The Eagle has landed".. It had an "oberst Steiner" IIRC .

Spook, nah, didn't intentionally avoid it. I just forgot to answer it . I live in Dublin (capital city of Ireland).

Ps. Just one other thing MikeT, the characterisation about who sees whom as being Irish etc you present is flawed. One of my best friends is Protestant and living in the South and has never encountered attitudes similar to those you ascribe to Catholic Irish.

In Ireland one must be VERY careful when describing motives to groups as :

1) things aren't always as they seem.

2) a superficial examination (which is all most foreigners can manage) is often misleading and

3) just like you did you made it into a Protestant vs Catholic thing but forgot the immensely important north vs south aspect also.

Northern Catholic views of Northern protestants are different to Northern catholic views of southern protestants and southern catholic views of Southern protestants are different than southern catholic views of northern protestants.

Suffice it to say I think your characterisation is the typical view of Ireland held world-wide but, as with most such conventional wisdom it is typically flawed.

[Username]

How long before this thread goes napalm? As a second generation mostly irish american, I can only say that Ireland due to its proximity and small size never had the ability to break away from the "Kingdom". Face it, England is the biggest slave-drivers and users in the history of mankind. They love to slaughter commen wealth troops (canadians, indians, whoever they get their hands on)instead of english boys.

I would never fight for England in any war if I was an Irish citizen.

Lewis

[Pak40]

What about the Irish Gaurd tank batallion that spearheaded XXX Corps in the Market Garden Campaign? Were they truly Irish, Norther Irish or just tradionally named the Irish Gaurd?

[killmore]

If you don't like Uk so much please tell me why so many countries started by UK have such high standard of living?

No country started by spain/portugal can compare to them. (US, Canada, Australia, NZ)

[Lee]

Well this thread took on a more serious tone than I would have

guessed it would. This makes my Lucky Charms question seem rather

out of place but I didn't know the discussion would turn to the

troubles in Ireland. Sorry if it came off badly.

Personally, I think that Ireland should be united and independent

of England. Where does England get the notion that they have

some "right" to rule over Ireland for the rest of human history?

I suppose they just figured they would subjugate the Irish

whether they liked it or not and that would be the end of that.

How wrong they were...

I know the IRA is an easy target for criticism these days

but I have often tried to put myself in their shoes and then think

about it. What if Canada invaded the northern part of

the U.S. (yeah I know, like they could ever win, haha but bear

with me) and had managed to occupy that area for some years.

And then a significant percentage of the U.S. residents in the

occupied territory, for some unfathomable reason , decided that

they were going to accept the presence of the Canadian troops

and kind of liked having them about and wanted to stay under

Canadian rule. Now, I wouldn't for one minute tolerate such

a situation and as a patriotic American would use whatever means were

necessary to throw out the invaders. And would hold the U.S.

citizens that had sided with the foreigners as traitors and

would have no great love for them, that's for sure.

The question is this: How does my hypothetical U.S.

scenario differ from the situation faced by patriotic Irishmen

living in the south? Now, I realize that this is a simplification

of the problem but still I think the basic gist applies. You

have a group of fiercely patriotic and independence-minded

Irish living in the south that want their country reunited and

the English invaders tossed out (regardless of long said invaders

have been there).

If I were put in a similar situation I'd want the invaders thrown

out, too. And if they wouldn't leave when I asked them nicely

then I'd make them leave. And it would be my right to do so.

When I look at it this way, I can understand why there is fighting

going on in Ireland. The English ought to just leave and that

would solve one major part of the problem. That's what I think.

[spider]

Many Irish Brigades (such as the irish guards who done point for xxx corps during the drive to arnhem)existed with huge amounts of southerners in them (english regiments have a long history in ireland before ww2 and many irish served in them then also),

we had a merchant navy, we had to negotiate the atlantic too, but the flag kept us relatively safe,

I have german recon photos of the east coast where there might have been an invasion had britain fallen to the nazis,

a few bombing runs accidentaly hit ireland,

More irishmen died in the great war when we enlisted in huge numbers.

During the first world war the germans supplied the ira with guns for the 1916 rebellion.

I have in my possession 2 kar98 wrecks (very little metal left but theyre still worth a bit due to their historical value, 1916 rising) from a ship called the aud which was sunk on a gun run, my mothers a marine archaeologist and worked on the salvage of that ship, they were common items and i was allowed keep the lesser quality guns, ive been to numerous uboat wrecks off the coast.

I have a few interesting articles on the irish army,navy and air corp (a few old planes and a salvaged hurricane we were allowed to take off the english)

Ill post em if theres an interest, this isnt a major army here so i dont expect a huge demand....

I want to make it clear,

*1* about 65% of northern ireland is towards a united ireland, it was about 50/50 in ww2, the whole of northern ireland was not pro ww2 as suggested, i could explain why north is separated from south but its long, if you want to know i could post it i suppose.

*2* most if not all the extremist republicans live in northern ireland not the republic, we dont have a broblem with most english, only the anti-irish ones.

*3* catholics and protestants are NOT republicans and unionists,

i have a friend who is protestant, lives in northern ireland but is a republican.

The only establishment in northern ireland which is sectarian against any religion is the orange order, which is against catholics and republicans, generally tho theres not as much trouble as there used to be and theres a cease fire.

*4* the irish are not red haired leprechaun farmers who drink guinness!

Im blond (yes blue eyes, i admit it ,im of aryan descent, )i live in suburbs and i drink budweiser or dutch gold (u get desperate, hehe)

my favorite color is black not green (dont read into that too much

*5* NOBODY EATS LUCKY CHARMS HERE!!!!!

Cyas all, im off to watch a film on sky movies (a british channel)

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This is my rifle,

this is my gun.

This ones for killing, this ones a tasty alternative to turkey at christmas.....

[spider]

I like crunchy nut cornflakes though

------------------

This is my rifle,

this is my gun.

This ones for killing, this ones a tasty alternative to turkey at christmas.....

[guachi]

As an American and a Montanan (my state, the size of Sweden, borders Canada) I would not mind at all if Canada invaded and I became a Canadian.

I have FAR more in common with a farmer in Alberta than with some religious fundamentalist nut job living in Mississippi. These people embarass me.

Jason

My paternal grandfather was Irish (last name: McGrody) and the closest he got to WWII was in the merchan marine. One crossing of the Atlantic was enough for him.

He fit the stereotype of an alcoholic Irish catholic to a 'T'

[Trooper]

Irishman #2 chiming in here...

I never asked, and never knew what religion my friends were. It never came up in conversation, and it didn't much matter. One guy got married in a Catholic church, which I suppose would give him away, but anyway.. I signed on as an Aetheist in the military, but took very little flak over it. (All of it good natured)

I seem to recall reading somewhere that during The Emergency (WWII to everyone else), more people per capita from Ireland went to serve with the British forces than did any country in the commonwealth. That said, I do wonder how accurate that information is, I would have thought that accolade would have gone to the Anzacs. I also recall a comment that if a British training NCO had a recruit with a Sligo or Limerick accent already noticeably adept with firearms, he'd say nothing. Certainly it became noticed towards the end of the war that Allied servicemen forced down over Ireland soon found their way North across the border, whilst the Axis tended to remain interned. (Note, the Irish kept the airplanes though!). Many Irish lasses ended up marrying these interned Germans. (Daft though it may have seemed in the movie, but in real life the POWs were actually allowed out of the camps to cinemas and the ilk, so had active social lives, and many of the local men were abroad under arms!)

Initially, Irish defenses were more looking North/East than South, given that it was thought that the British might be inclined to take usage of the ports in question by force.

True or not, there's a story about two Irishmen in the British forces who were sharing a foxhole during a German bombardment. One is reputed to have said to the other 'You can say what you like about Dev, at least he kept us out of <this> war!' (Dev is De Valera, Irish statesman)

There's apparently a clause somewhere in international law that states that if a neutral country cannot effectively patrol and enforce its neutrality, it is permissable for belligerant countries to roam around in that country's air/sea space. To rectify this, the Irish military made emergency purchases of supplies and equipment, generally from the British (MTBs and Spitfires) though usually it took a lot of wrangling for the British to divert the small amount of production required. Stuff like coal which we got from the UK was invariably low-grade stuff.

As for Northern politics, I try not to get involved. I did know better than to park my D-Reg (Dublin) car in an area in the North where the sidewalk curbs were painted red, blue and white. My maroon 'Airborne' shirt almost got me in trouble in the Republic once or twice. (People thinking I was a British Para, a none-too-popular group) As long as the groups involved are not shooting and are talking, they get my support.

As a sidenote, the IRA are/were a ligitimate body. They were known as Oglaigh na hEireann (Volunteers of Ireland), which is the name of the current day Defense Forces. The crowd you hear about nowadays are the Provisional IRA, and usually related offshoots. Last year, one of these offshoots, presumably looking for a little historical justification, ("Real IRA") started calling themselves Oglaidh na hEireann as well. The media, probably not knowing any better, also started referring to them by that name, until the Defense Forces released a rather strongly worded statement to the press telling them to stop, because <they> had the legal title to the name!

There's a rather pitiful little official Irish Defense forces website at www.military.ie but you'll find a section that is worth it: http://www.military.ie/arw

Take care all...

Manic Moran

[spider]

I think it should be known that the ira nowdays is not the ira of 1916,

Much like the old and new mini, the only similarity is name.

I dont personally think a united ireland will be possible for a while, the projected figures for population growth in the north and with the irish economy booming it will be possible by 2015 or something, i read that by then the majority of united ireland will be well over the estimated 65% current.

Also worth cosidering is the fall apart of the uk, scotland and much later wales will eventually be independent states to england,

they already have separate parliaments,

the scottish especially got a terrible deal out of "britain" most of the wealth pours back into england, margaret tatcher gave them a terrible deal and laid off workforces in scotland and wales leaving both in a relative depression when compared to england,

in wales their biggest industry, coalmining was shut down by tatchers administration and that only fueled devolution, despite patriotism in the extreme, england alone wont sustain northern ireland if it doesnt end up irish and it will devolve like the others becoming a state....

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This is my rifle,

this is my gun.

This ones for killing, this ones a tasty alternative to turkey at christmas.....

[Neutral Party]

In my experience it is very important when getting into a discussion of Irish history and politics to tread warily because there are many highly sensitive toes just dying to be trod on. This is of particular relevance in a bulletin board format where disagreements have a tendency to go nuclear at an early stage. So take deep breaths everyone.

The chances of more than 300 years of highly complex and highly charged multi-cultural interaction being adequately summarized to everyone's satisfaction are slim. Although history is an endlessly fascinating subject for study, as a recipe for living it is a damn heavy ball and chain to carry around. Nevertheless it's important to realise that there are as many ways of being Irish as there are of being human. There is no Platonic ideal Irishman sitting in a vacuum chamber somewhere in France (well maybe there is - but its not a particularly rewarding lifestyle).

If the last thirty years have tought us anything it is that there is no politically-acceptable military solution to this problem (puerile fantasies about Canadian invasions notwithstanding).

Eventually it seems inevitable that Ireland will become a unitary state for demographic if no other reason. Maybe then Irelands gift to the world will be to show how different traditions can live together in peace and justice.

Tomorrow in New York (where I find myself at the moment) St. Patrick's day will be pushing the concept of Irishness to the limit. Scottish tartans and bagpipes playing Scotland the brave (Americans can't tell the difference), mariachi bands with green white and gold sombrerros, NYPD on parade and gay and lesbian trying to get in. Maybe there's hope for multiculturism yet.

In the words of some African-American bum who I gave a buck to last year "God bless Ireland and I hope you get laid."

Joe

[Lee]

Well I wasn't presenting the Canadian invasion as a realistic

possibility, just trying to put myself in a situation similar to

what a patriotic Irishman might find himself in. Even though I

don't expect Canada to invade the U.S. and try to occupy a

portion of it any time soon, I'd have a *serious* problem with

them if they (or anyone else) tried. And I would be within my

rights to use force to boot them out. Now, I'm not saying that's

the most efficient way to handle the problem in Ireland as it

currently stands. But I can certainly see where those that argue

that it is a legitimate option if other means fail are coming from.

If I were in their shoes I might well feel the same.

[icee93]

Fionn I take it your from Ireland!!

Hmm now I know why your writings have a pro-German twist and a negative view of the British.

Interesting.

[MikeT]

Fionn, please keep in mind mom was Brit and had the Brit of view, from the 1930s point of view.. I don't defend that but I do understand that, she was also total against firearms as well--oh well parents are not totally right.

MikeT

[dumbo]

Well as I am half Irish and half English all I can say is I am appalled by some of the comments here.

Fionn:"The situation was a LOT more complex than it might appear... E.g. Our declaration of Independence was signed in 1916. In 1940 only ONE of the signatories was still alive and he was our Taoiseach (equivalent to the US President). What had happened to the other signatories? They had ALL been shot by the British government including men too sick to stand (and shot in their wheelchairs) and women." Hmm are you including Micheal Collins here? Last time I chked he was murdered by fellow Republicans. He may not have been a signatory. Anyway see my comments at the end for my attitudes here.

Lee:"When I look at it this way, I can understand why there is fighting

going on in Ireland. The English ought to just leave and that

would solve one major part of the problem. That's what I think."

The English dont LIVE in Northern Ireland. The Northern Irish do. The majority (about 55%) of whome will NEVER wish to be subjected to southern rule (and given the history who can blame them?), they have the same feelings about the Southern Irish as the Southern Irish do about the English. They have been butchered enough never to want to be under thier rule.

Username:"England is the biggest slave-drivers and users in the history of mankind. They love to slaughter commen wealth troops (canadians, indians, whoever they get their hands on)instead of english boys."

You should withdraw this comment. I assume you wrote it off the cuff without actually thinking about it. If not I can rebut.

Spider:"the scottish especially got a terrible deal out of "britain" most of the wealth pours back into england, margaret tatcher gave them a terrible deal and laid off workforces in scotland and wales leaving both in a relative depression when compared to england,"

No. Actually England makes a net loss out of Scotland and Northern Ireland. English taxpayers subsidize Scotland (and that loss includes oil revenues by the way). This is the situation for the past 20 years, before then I dont know. Thatcher was not just bad for Scotland FYI, she didnt do the English unemployed too many favours either, I know I was one of them.

Ice"Fionn I take it your from Ireland!!

Hmm now I know why your writings have a pro-German twist and a negative view of the British."

Contrary to overseas readers most Southern Irish folks get on rather well with the English. I have not detected any anti English viewpoints on Fionns part, here he is just stating history.

Neutral party: "In my experience it is very important when getting into a discussion of Irish history and politics to tread warily because there are many highly sensitive toes just dying to be trod on. This is of particular relevance in a bulletin board format where disagreements have a tendency to go nuclear at an early stage. So take deep breaths everyone."

Aint that the truth. Your post is spot on.

When it comes to Irish/UK politics as the wise already know you are walking through a minefeild guys. Hatreds and finger pointing go back to the time before Cromwell and neither side ever admits wrongdoing.

The good news is that although Ireland has a bloody past (and dont let one side ever tell you they were always the innocent victims, it all depends on which bit of history you pick). Todays Republic and the North are actually becoming nicer places to live. The biggest catholic party on the north is the SDLP who are truly the ones who have worked hardest to acheive peace in Northern Ireland one can only feel sadness that they have to deal with Sinn Fein/IRA on one hand and the ever intransegnet Unionists on the other. Also the current governments of Ireland and the UK have really bust thier balls to try and heal some of these wounds one also has to doff the cap to president Clinton.

As Spider pointed out however attitudes in Ireland have been gradually softening since the terrorism went on cease fire (and by the way the provisional IRA are not alone in committing evil acts here there are several vicious Unionist terrorist groups as well).

While a united Ireland isnt going to happen any time soon the sober proposals in the good friday agreement really are a good compromise. I sure hope it gets back on track soon but a discussion of why its stalled would add up to another 100 messages back and forth

I have tried to tone down the rhetoric here as Ireland inflames passions. I ask posters to kindly do the same, in particular as Neutral party suggested by very careful making blanket statements about either side.