The Irish in WW2

[Guest Mike]

A question about the origin of northern Ireland - I had always thought that the basis for the Protestant population there was the "Red Shanks" Scots soldiers bought over by the English during the late 1500's.

Can any of our Irish readers confirm or deny? (purely out of hiostorical interest)

[dumbo]

I never thought I would say it but discussing WW2 is far less devisive than Irish history I will let one of the people who actually live in Northern Ireland answer this one. From the current posts I would imagine Neutral Party would be in the best position to fill you in as he visits NI. I havent been there in 15 years so I am now somewhat removed.

I could ask my dad if you like as ALL people who live there are walking selective history books.

BTW just to underline how bizzare irish politics can be my dad is a Protestant from the Republic who is an EXTREME anti monarchist and Irish nationalist. He also despises with a passion the provisional IRA. To make it even odder after he married my English mom he joined the British army and served in Aden. To make it even more bizzare half his family lives in the north and half in the south. The family has bitter divisions about the merits of the Republic versus the UK and family feuds over this issue stretch back since I can recall.

You can see with this family background I am somewhat oversensitive to blanket statemts such as the English are evil or Republicans are all terrorists. As with anyone who has actually been to Ireland or the North you can get pretty sick of the constant intrusion if history into every bloody debate. I remember vividly how a family discussion on a family member getting divorced (a big deal then) ended up with a 4 hour long mean spirited marathon debate on William of Orange and ended up with one member stalking out with the classic line "Aye well you werent f*cking well there so i wouldnt expect you to understand!" Apparently this uncle of mine was a few hundred years old, I hope I inherit his longevity gene.

[Fionn]

*sigh* Why do I even F'ing bother with some of the people on this board? An eternal and somewhat rhetorical question of course but one which I, unfortunately, am asking myself again for the first time in the year 2000.

Now, I am consciously going to let loose on one poster to this thread and damn the consequences. Enjoy !

1.

To Icee,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Fionn I take it your from Ireland!!

Hmm now I know why your writings have a pro-German twist and a negative view of the British. Interesting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eat **** and die OR better yet visit me and let me forcefeed you till you choke.( I would like to point out that while my language was abusive at NO point did I cast any aspersion on Icee but merely gave him some friendly advice as to condiments ). I am half-Belgian and lost virtually all my Flemish family to the Germans. I have NO reason to be pro-German.

Negative view of the British? In what sense? I'm one of the few who defends Montgomery to a certain degree on the board. I don't recall ever applying any two-faced standards to British units in WW2.

Do I think what the British government did in Ireland when it hung my great-grandmother from a tree was laudable? Hmm, no I don't. Do I think it was "good" that they burnt down Cork? No. Do I appreciate the fact that during the famine in which the population of Ireland was reduced by 50% we were a net EXPORTER OF FOOD? No. Do I appreciate the fact that the British government of the time would rather let Irish people die than feed us and see a slight increase in food prices in England? No. Do I understand that this was the end effect of the Laissez-Faire economics model which the British parliament ascribed to at the time and wasn't a sign of real cruelty (except insofar as the famine was used to preferentially commit genocide against non-English speaking Irish people) ? Yes I do. Does that matter to the 1.something million who starved (almost all of whom were die-hard Irish speakers who didn't know English) ? Nope.

Please feel free to QUOTE from previous posts I have made and PROVE your accusation. Please also be sure to quote IN CONTEXT. I don't like having piss-ants cast aspersions on me so you have a choice to either apologise for a poorly chosen comment (whereupon I'll forget the whole matter) OR you can try to "prove" your accusation. You should be warned that attempting to prove it would not be an option I'd choose if I were you though.

If you can't quote in context then please withdraw the comment and apologise. Otherwise I would be QUITE happy to give you my address and meet you one day of your choosing to pummel your face into a bloody pulp. Your choice. Do you live in England? If you do then it should be easy to meet. I can meet anytime in the next two weeks at your convenience. After that it would probably have to be a weekend. Let me know.

MikeT,

Oh I have no problem with your mother's viewpoint apart from the fact I find it innacurate . EVERYONE tells the "truth" as they saw it ( you do, I do, everyone does ). As we all know images undergoe interpretation in one's brain and the extent and types of interpretations are moulded by one's upbringing and the outlook and ingrained thinking of one's country and society.

It'd be madness if we brought everyone who was born 60 or 70 years ago for opinions they have which aren't PC anymore . Anyways, FWIW I don't have any problem with English people in general. I went to college with many English people and one of my best friends from college is English. I react to people based on how they treat me. I have Muslim, Russian, American, Chinese, Japanese, English, German, Irish, Northern Irish, Croatian, Serbian, Kosovar Serbian, Turkish, Greek, Flemish, French, Kuwaiti, Iraqi, Iranian, Indonesian etc friends.

Hell I know one Serbian and one Turkish Moslem who are the best of friends and have spent many nights crashed on their couches during college weekends . I lived with a fundamentalist muslim for a year which was fun . No haraam meats in the house, no music at all ( he was REALLY religious and strict), no women in the house etc etc... A bit of a bore to live with ( I'm Irish, women, music and drink are 3 things I can't live without) but an intensely nice guy and good friend. I take people as they are and not based on what their governments do. I don't associate with people who can't make the distinction between person and government and detest penily-overcompensating morons like Icee who try to say otherwise with no justification.

As for the North and attitudes to people of other religion in Ireland I think that nowadays no-one cares much her in the South. I always sign myself into hospitals etc as either an atheist or of no definite religion. Most others I know do likewise and don't give a damn about religion anymore. The Ireland of today is, thankfully, a much more tolerant place than the Ireland of 30 years ago. In Northern Ireland wounds still run deep but, as Trooper pointed out, it should be borne in mind that political beliefs and NOT religion is the dividing line in the North. That most people who feel they owe allegiance to the UK are Protestant is undeniable but not all Protestants are Unionists etc. In fact some of the greatest leaders of the Republican movement over the past 200 years have been Protestants. It really all comes down to where one believes one's allegiance lies and this isn't determined by religion although it is true that most Roman Catholics in the north would want to be a part of the Republic more than they would like to be a part of the UK (but again by no means all would).

personally I know both Unionists and Republicans and Protestants and Catholics and just take them all on the basis of how they treat me and eachother. All of those I know are more than willing to subjugate whatever political beliefs they have in the interests of having a great party and the more we go down the road of realising that LIVING LIFE is more important than bickering about exactly where to draw a border than the happier I am. In the end I'd rather see 500 more people alive in a Northern Ireland under British rule than have these same 500 people lying in coffins in a Northern Ireland under Irish rule.

Dumbo:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Fionn:"The situation was a LOT more complex than it might appear... E.g. Our declaration of Independence was signed in 1916. In 1940 only ONE of the signatories was still alive and he was our Taoiseach (equivalent to the US President). What had happened to the other signatories? They had ALL been shot by the British government including men too sick to stand (and shot in their wheelchairs) and women."

Dumbo: Hmm are you including Micheal Collins here? Last time I chked he was murdered by fellow Republicans. He may not have been a signatory. Anyway see my comments at the end for my attitudes here. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, you should learn more history Dumbo. Michael Collins didn't sign the declaration. What I stated is PURE HISTORICAL FACT. Men in wheelchairs and women WERE shot by the British for signing that declaration. The ONLY survivor of those signatories in 1940 WAS the Taoiseach and I FIRMLY believe that one reason he denied the British access to irish ports was his rememberance of the DEATH SENTENCE a British court passed on him and his friends and from which only he was spared by virtue of his American citizenship.

If you don't believe the execution of 15 or 20 friends could harden your attitudes towards the country executing them then you are naive.

Now, after establishing that what I described was PURE HISTORICAL FACT and of value in describing the context in which I believe DeValera refused the UK and US access to irish ports do you still have an issue with me mentioning it? I believe that you had no reason to take issue with my statements which were within context and composed primarily of pure historical fact.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Contrary to overseas readers most Southern Irish folks get on rather well with the English. I have not detected any anti English viewpoints on Fionns part, here he is just stating history.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Precisely. I have no issue with individual English people. I DO have an issue with some things the British government did many years back but ordinary English people of today had no part in those actions so I have no problem with them...

[This message has been edited by Fionn (edited 03-16-2000).]

[dumbo]

Fionn:"Now, after establishing that what I described was PURE HISTORICAL FACT and of value in describing the context in which I believe DeValera refused the UK and US access to irish ports do you still have an issue with me mentioning it? I believe that you had no reason to take issue with my statements which were within context and composed primarily of pure historical fact."

Nope I dont take issue. I was just asking about collins as I didnt know as I mentioned in my post thanks for clarifying.

_dumbo

[Fionn]

Dumbo,

Ok . Mea Culpa but Icee got me just a might bit annoyed (could you tell ? ).

Temperature returning to normal now (although my offer to meet him still stands).

Anyways, the British made a major mistake in shooting them all since:

a) before they were shot Dubliners actually pelted the rebels with fruit when they were captured.

shooting them merely made martyrs and created a rallying point for dissent and allowed propagandists to conjure up images of a "hard rule".

As one of the UK generals in Ireland said at the time... "We used a cannonball to kill a fly and missed."

[Username]

Originally posted by dumbo:

Well as I am half Irish and half English all I can say is I am appalled by some of the comments here.

Username:"England is the biggest slave-drivers and users in the history of mankind. They love to slaughter commen wealth troops (canadians, indians, whoever they get their hands on)instead of english boys."

You should withdraw this comment. I assume you wrote it off the cuff without actually thinking about it. If not I can rebut.

Go ahead give me your rebuttal. Even the American airborne units couldnt get away from useless English command fast enough after the Arnhem debacle. Please spare me the Royal haughty taughty BS about English speaking nations being so successful. Come to NY sometime and see who is speaking english.

Lewis

[dumbo]

Username: Well I thought you were making a historical accusation about "England is the biggest slave-drivers and users in the history of mankind. They love to slaughter commen wealth troops (canadians, indians, whoever they get their hands on)instead of english boys."

The answer to this is that the sacrifces made by english officers from the upper class of working class English servicemen outweighes any amount of "slaughter" that may have occured with foreign troops. The forgetting of the english class structure during these times is a common misconception with those not familiar with the internal workings of English society.

By the way English servicemen didnt think much of their American commanders either who they regarded as willing to drive them to death for cheap publicity. This by the way stems from the English expereince in WW1 which casta shadow over how its WW2 commanders and troops conducted themselves. Its rather easy to think your commander is sacrificing you if he is from another country.

However from your follow up its pretty obvious you just think British commanders in WW2 were inferior presumable to American ones. Thats a longer debate which was rather well covered in the monty thread and I sense you are trolling for some English bashing.

I feel like reacting as Fionn did but as I have rather enjoyed our past debates and dont feel like polluting the board I wont. Its a shame you seem to dislike the English so much though. Just from my perspective such anti-english statements are a bit daft coming from an American who are on the receiving end of exactly the same kind of stuff from much of the rest of the world.

[Fionn]

Ok, come on.. Touchy topic but let's all leave this one behind eh?

I don't want to see Dumbo and Username get into verbal fisticuffs any more than they already have. Whatever I felt like doing to Icee shouldn't be allowed to spill over by others and create little "ripple fights".

Why don't ya just settle it in a PBEM with the full game . I guarantee you it is satisfying to rip someone you don't like apart via PBEM.

[Pak40]

Spider,

thanks for the info. I'm starting to take Irish dance lessons, it helps to know a bit of the history and makes for great conversation at O'Flarity's, the best Irish pub in New Orleans.

I can't figure out which is worse - an Irishman drinking Bud or the Scottish fellow I saw the other night drinking White Russians

[dumbo]

Hehehe fair enough I am done. Ill let username respond and let him have last word. I am outta here. Good will with lliving people is more important to me than wars which are over.

_dumbo

[Lee]

I just wanted to say that I back Fionn's outrage over the

comments made about him. Just because one has a serious problem

with the way England has treated his fellow countrymen (and what

decent fellow wouldn't?) doesn't make him pro-nazi or somehow

allied in thought or actions with the nazi government. One can

dislike the English government and dislike the nazi government

just as much (or more). And you shouldn't go around saying (or

implying) that someone might have pro-nazi sympathies without

proof; as it is a very serious charge.

Dumbo: I didn't say the English lived in northern Ireland.

I was referring to their withdrawing their troops and staying

out of internal Irish disputes entirely.

[Username]

Hey Fionn

Were the Germans anti-flemites? Now thats a joke to hopefully defuse the situation here.

I just feel the Brits feel historically like they are the lords of the planet and everyone now realizes they are has beens. Except poor Ireland because they are stuck in the neighborhood.

Lewis

[Guest PeterNZ]

*eyeing the troll mask.. he feels his hands.. slowly stretch out "no i mustn't!" he thinks "it will only start a flame war!".. but he can't stop.. years of political study and talking to too many radicals, whos words echo in his head force him to don the Troll mask, the point ears, and the furry Troll gloves and say...*

Surely the US would be one of the biggest slave drivers etc etc in history?

tee-hee

PeterNZ

*running*

[Major Tom]

Peter NZ is right, actually, in fact just about every European nation and European Settled nation is guilty for being cruel slave drivers.

Just mentioning the slave trade, which just about every European nation took part in (well, those who had connection to the sea!).

100+ Million Africans died in the 300 year slave trade. Kind of makes the 6+ million Jewish people dying during Hitler's reign seem a little small (yet, not unimportant!).

Every nation, within their own time of power, has, would and will enslave another nation in order to increase their own prosperity. Nobody here deserves to sit on the high horse and state an over abundance of morality over the members of another society. I agree there should be outrage at these horrific events. The guilty should be punished, but, they should not resort to vigilanteism. Many societies recieved their freedom through peaceful protest, and were usually more successful than those who used violence. Given the chance, any nation with any semblence of power will abuse their neighbours in order to get a leg up. Some have yet to get this chance.

Britain is guilty, so is the US, so is Germany, France, Belgium, Holland, Italy, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Sweden, Switzerland, Poland, Yugoslavia, Russia, Spain, Portugal, Austria, Hungary, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, Romainia, and many more. Sure, you could rank them from worst to least worst, but, does it really matter who "wins"? Everybody sucks.

[spider]

Just to put in my final word here,

And about the north to the guy who wonders where protestant settlers come from, they were mainly scottish presbiterians, they didnt really cause any trouble, and the whole country was under british rule at that time anyway,

Oh, yeah, micheal collins survived the 1916 rising but was shot by Devaleras men (Devalera was an irishman but he lived in america and had american citizenship, thats how he escaped the 1916 firing squad)

They made a film about it but most of it is hollywood junk , its a one sided film.

I have absolutely no problem with the english, been there, liked that, bought a cheeseburger.

dumbo, 55% is an old figure, the nationalist community have been outbreeding the unionists since the early forties.

the projected figure is 65%,

(remember that poor people have larger families, thats a statistical rule, now that theres more nationalists its not going to change, it will grow)

That means nothing however as that kind of differencedoes not merit a changeover such as hong kong, i dont believe its a good idea at all, the trouble would be unreal, there would be chaos, its just not going to happen for a good while yet!

As for Usernames comment, it wasnt as bad for ww2 but in ww1 the irish regiments were wiped out first, as Fionn said, to get rid of the trouble makers, but thats forgotten now.

And as for thatcher being bad for everyone.

I know that, i wasnt saying she wasnt, but that is one of the cases the scottish and welsh are using as an example of how they are abused by london rule,

One question however, why are you losing money on NI scotland and Wales?

unemployment, they never recovered fully...

o. fionn it was more than 50%, we have 50% of pre-famine population now, nevermind just after it..

And just a pro-british comment since it is true, they were actually the first superpower to outlaw slavery!

This is what i think should be the last post,

Just argumenting, no hard feelings, i used to go shopping in northern ireland a lot, until the exchange rate shafted my wallet so badly!

Quote of Dumbo "Contrary to overseas readers most Southern Irish folks get on rather well with the English. I have not detected any anti English viewpoints on Fionns part, here he is just stating history."

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This is my rifle,

this is my gun.

This ones for killing, this ones a tasty alternative to turkey at christmas.....

[Mike T]

Happy St Patrick's Day everyone!!

A few short notes to point out here.

1. Please don't confuse me with the other Mike T (I'm 'Bitter Mike').

2. I'm of French Canadian ancestry with Irish blood from both sides of the Irish 'Question' as well as English and Scottish and a touch of German. The English and French Blood is always arguing with each other and the Irish blood keeps me drunk enough not to notice

3. I read a history of the Irish Civil War of 1919-1920 and came to the conclusion that if you put ten Irishmen in a room you couldn't get two of them to agree on the same opinion

4. As far as Canada invading the US, I think we've almost taken over parts of Florida and Arizona . Besides, it was shortly after the Revolution that either Vermont or New Hampshire almost voted to join Canada rather than remain with the US (I believe because they were PO'ed with how the southerners were running things )

5. Lastly, My English Grandmother taught me that on St Patirck's Day everyone in the world was allowed to consider h'self an Irishman. How's that for Multiculturalism.

Oh, and thanks to Dumbo, I think you're the only one so far who ansered my original question.

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'Bitter Mike'

[spider]

I generally stay away from anything russian, and paintstripper, or are they all one and the same?

------------------

This is my rifle,

this is my gun.

This ones for killing, this ones a tasty alternative to turkey at christmas.....

[Mike T]

Sorry Spider, I forgot to thank you too for your interesting post about the German recon photos etc. Did you know that the German's also had a plan drafted to invade Ireland in WW2 - it was called Fall Grun (Plan Green) and I believe SPI was actually developing a wargame based on it. By the way, do you have any info on what the Republic's armed forces were like during the war.

------------------

'Bitter Mike'

[Black Sabot]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike T:

4. As far as Canada invading the US, I think we've almost taken over parts of Florida and Arizona

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your so right about Florida. I am seriously considering taking up arms and organizing a militia to drive out the horde! We will be ruthless and efficient in our prosecution of the heathen canuks!

When we are thru the traffic on the interstate will resume its normal speed, Parking at the mall will become availible, and waiters and waitresses across my beloved state will be TIPPED for their services!! FLORIDIANS UNITE!!!

(Just kidding Mike, actually my family "invaded" florida from the other direction -Cuba- so i'm not one to talk).

[Trooper]

Ok lads.. let's quieten it down. It's Paddy's day, so lá féile Pháidrig a gach duine and let's stop the fighting and have a pint! (Apologies if my grammar or spelling is a bit off, the only Irish I've used since school has been in the army!) Let's see if this topic can die an honorable death (without being locked!) and just leave it as the answer to the original quesion: Yes, many Irish people fought in WWII, even though we were neutral, and let's go back at playing CM! (Can we get a Sherman or Cromwell texture with a shamrock painted on it?)

BTW, I thought it was only one guy in a wheelchair?

Manic Moran

[Hakko Ichiu]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

Michael Collins didn't sign the declaration. What I stated is PURE HISTORICAL FACT. Men in wheelchairs and women WERE shot by the British for signing that declaration. The ONLY survivor of those signatories in 1940 WAS the Taoiseach and I FIRMLY believe that one reason he denied the British access to irish ports was his rememberance of the DEATH SENTENCE a British court passed on him and his friends and from which only he was spared by virtue of his American citizenship.

If you don't believe the execution of 15 or 20 friends could harden your attitudes towards the country executing them then you are naive.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fionn,

I will admit up front that I do not know the historical details regarding this incident. It seem to me, however, that if those executed were sentenced to death by a court, then they had been found guilty of some crime -- presumably treason as they were HM's subjects -- the penalty for which was death.

It is interesting to compare your outrage at this incident with your view of the summary executions of innocent civilians by the SS at Outremont. I know you did not approve of it, but you did say it was a justifiable action in time of war. Surely then, the British were at least equally justified in executing traitors. Conversely, they could not hang the Taoiseach (I presume that was De Valera) as a traitor because he was an American citizen at the time.

The British did the same thing during the American Revolution (e.g., Nathan Hale), and would have gladly strung Messrs. Washington, Jefferson, Madison et al. from the nearest Liberty Tree. And they would have been equally justified, as all the above were HM's subjects until they took up arms against him.

I don't say this was a morally right course of action, anymore than you are approve of Outrement, but it was certainly justified under the rule of law. And as you rightly note, such executions mostly self-defeating, as all they result in is martyrs to the Cause.

I realize that a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, but it seems as though your attitude to such things rather depends on whether it's your ox being gored.

Ethan

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Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe

[Fionn]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> if those executed were sentenced to death by a court, then they had been found guilty of some crime -- presumably treason as they were HM's subjects -- the penalty for which was death. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It is interesting to compare your outrage at this incident with your view of the summary executions of innocent civilians by the SS at Outremont.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What outrage? I was merely stating that the shooting of these friends of DeValera was BOUND to influence him to refuse the UK access to bases in Ireland. (FWIW the shooting of women and men in wheelchairs was DEFINITELY important since it contributed to public outrage against the shootings which would have resulted in protests against British use of bases even if DeValera had wanted to give the British access.)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> but you did say it was a justifiable action in time of war. Surely then, the British were at least equally justified in executing traitors.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Definitely. They were definitely within their rights to execute those individuals for treason. Was it a stupid choice to make (with a view to creating martyrs etc)? Yes. Was it within their right to do so? Yes.

Would I have shot the rebels if I was in command here at the time? No but the ONLY reason I wouldn't have is that I wouldn't have wanted to create martyrs. I'd have just kept them in jail till they died of natural causes since this would have stirred up less trouble in the long-term.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Conversely, they could not hang the Taoiseach (I presume that was De Valera) as a traitor because he was an American citizen at the time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually they were within their rights to hang him since he was ALSO an Irish.UK citizen. The reason they didn't was that they didn't want to anger the US at that time.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I don't say this was a morally right course of action, anymore than you are approve of Outrement, but it was certainly justified under the rule of law. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree completely.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I realize that a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, but it seems as though your attitude to such things rather depends on whether it's your ox being gored.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ONLY if you take it that I felt the shooting of the rebels was legally unjustifiable (which I didn't) .

Ethan, YOU assumed motivations and feelings on my part AGAIN without conducting research . I feel the shootings were EMINENTLY justifiable (stupid but legal ). In future if you're going to question my viewpoint on matters I advise you to first ELICIT my viewpoint precisely ( emphasis on the precisely ) before making some incorrect assumptions and blabbing them around the forum ok? Kinda makes me wonder at your motivations.

Trooper, yup, you're right.. Only one was shot in his wheelchair although at least one more (possibly two if memory serves me right) were trussed up against planks because they couldn't stand and were wheelchair-bound by wounds.

[This message has been edited by Fionn (edited 03-17-2000).]

[spider]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike T:

Sorry Spider, I forgot to thank you too for your interesting post about the German recon photos etc. Did you know that the German's also had a plan drafted to invade Ireland in WW2 - it was called Fall Grun (Plan Green) and I believe SPI was actually developing a wargame based on it. By the way, do you have any info on what the Republic's armed forces were like during the war.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, theyre the photos i have all right, i can get you a good bit of info, ill post it later on a separate thread, i have to find the books, just moved house, its a mess.

Its amusing a lot of it, we were that badly equipped, its not much better now, we had to "borrow" apcs for peacekeeping,

we have excellent small arms but the expensive stuff just isnt there, our best tanks are british scorpions!!

so anyway, ill post it all later in the week so stay tuned

------------------

This is my rifle,

this is my gun.

This ones for killing, this ones a tasty alternative to turkey at christmas.....

[spider]

As far as i know the republicans in the rising were put to death on the same day as the rising ended.

Fair trials can take months, just saying...

------------------

This is my rifle,

this is my gun.

This ones for killing, this ones a tasty alternative to turkey at christmas.....

[Hakko Ichiu]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

Ethan, YOU assumed motivations and feelings on my part AGAIN without conducting research . I feel the shootings were EMINENTLY justifiable (stupid but legal ). In future if you're going to question my viewpoint on matters I advise you to first ELICIT my viewpoint precisely ( emphasis on the precisely ) before making some incorrect assumptions and blabbing them around the forum ok? Kinda makes me wonder at your motivations.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A couple of things:

1) I'm not sure about the "again" bit. Where have I done so previously? Perhaps you have me confused w/someone else?

2) I based my presumption of outrage on the liberal use of ALLCAPS in your two posts on the execution. Since, as you know, in UseNet parlance this is considered shouting, I figured you were pretty exercised about the whole thing. Since you say that was not the case, I apologize forthwith.

That having been said, when I am replying to something you wrote, that is really all I have to go on. We could have spent several days going back and forth via e-mail trying to pin down our exact standpoints on the issue, but it's much easier for all concerned for me simply to respond to what you wrote and then have you rebut me.

As to my motivations, I was simply pointing out what I thought to be an interesting case of perceptual bias. Nothing more, nothing less. We all have them: I get far more upset over the massacre at Malmedy then I do, say, about the St. Bartholemew's Day Massacre of the Huguenots. For you to impute motivations to me beyond that does you no credit.

Ethan

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Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe

[This message has been edited by Hakko Ichiu (edited 03-19-2000).]