Civilian Rifle Recommendation

[Guest Pillar]

Interesting suggestion, though I don't know where I could find an old fashioned rifle like that around where I live.

Website mailorder?

[Guest Mirage2k]

My uncle shoots flintlocks and civil war-era rifles. They're all reproductions, and I think he gets them from some Italian company (they're supposedly really good, though I don't have the knowledge to really back that up). I also have no idea what the name of the company is, so...I guess I'm not much help.

-Andrew

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[Mark IV]

I concur with BAR that .223 would be a very good choice. BANGs like a real gun, no appreciable recoil, cheap military practice ammo abundant, and ballistically excellent.

I should have suggested it, but I'm a hunter. The .223 (5.56mm) can actually kill deer neatly (shot placement is everything!) but is not recommended for that.

The Remington 700 is available in .223. Again, looking at this from your perspective, that Rem is an industry standard- there are more parts, kits, scope mounts, and gunsmith familiarity with it than almost any other bolt-gun out there.

I love arcane exotica but you'd be nuts to buy that kind of thing for a first gun. I love old Remington Rolling Blocks and I'm tickled with Babra's .43- I have a couple .43 (11mm) Spanish and they rock. Good luck getting ammo at K-Mart (sorry, Canadian Tire).

wadepm: I paid compliments to the M1 but I note that Springfields continued to be issued as sniper weapons in the US through Korea. We are talking about incremental, not geometric, improvements in accuracy but it's that last 5% that makes the difference.

Bullethead: Point taken on the flintlock (been thinkin' about one). Archery has some similar issues. I like the notion that despite your best efforts, the damned thing may not go off at all- kind of like units in CM. Too real. Think about what that was like when the Iroquois ruled the night!

[wadepm]

They made a sniper version of the M1 called the M1C and M1D. Because of the top loading they had to mount the scope to the side of the receiver. Then they had to add a cheek pad to the stock so the shooters eye would line up with the scope! They also manufactered a match version, designated NM, that could shoot better than 2 MOA.

[Dienekes]

The Steyr SBS Prohunter is a very good rifle. It is available in .308/ 7.62 Nato which is what I recommend do to cost of rounds. In Canada is much more expensive then the U.S. Here is a link to a distributor. http://www.gsifirearms.com/index.html

There is another rifle the Steyr Scout which is sniper rifle but lots of $$$. The Prohunter has many similar features. I can't remember the magazine but the tested the Prohunter and at 100 metres it had 10 shot groupings of less than .5 inches. BTW the Scout was voted best rifle of 1999 by Guns and Ammo magazine. I don't have a Prohunter but if I were to buy a rifle it would be my choice.

[Dienekes]

I think every post I ever made has at least one mistake in it. I refer to the cost of rounds being more expensive in Canada so .308/ 7.62 Nato is recommended. Probably the rifle is to knowing Canada and our gun policies.

[Guest aaronb]

Hey, Pillar. If you're even remotely close to Burlington, look me up privately (email) and we can discuss a visit to my range to give you a basic introduction. The more young people shooting in Canada, the more political support we'll have in the future.

You say 'long-range' - if you mean up to about 300 metres, literally nothing beats the 6mm PPC - however, it is a benchrest cartridge, so you may have some trouble finding off-the-shelf components.

For 'good enough', the .223, available for the Rem700, can do sub-MOA groups (1 inch at 100 yards, 3 at 300), and is widely available (both factory loads and handloading equipment).

If you're talking over 300 yards, there are two current accuracy champs in benchrest: the .308 and the .50BMG. 50BMG is out for a bunch of reasons, so .308 it is.

However: in Canada, it is almost impossible to shoot past 200 yards. Club ranges rarely go past 200 yards, and the public (military) ranges are effectively closed to the public (how ironic) due to recent changes in fees and paperwork requirements. And you can't target shoot on your own land anymore, so forget long-range on the hydro right-of-way or a cleared path on your 'back-40'.

So, as a great starter rig built for out-of-the-box target accuracy up to about 300 yards, the clear winner is:

Remington 700VS (or VLS), chambered in .223 .

re: recoil. I just did a centerfire competition, putting 35 rounds of .308 downrange... now, I'm not recoil-sensitive, but I do have a decent bruise on the shoulder. Not a good starter caliber.

FYI, I routinely beat the local competition with this 20-year-old Remington 700 in .308. Sure, I shoot better than they do, but the rifle takes up a lot of slack if I'm having a bad day. It will put all the bullets in a five-shot group in the same hole at 100 yards, off the bench.

[Major Tom]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aaronb:

The more young people shooting in Canada, the more political support we'll have in the future.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, listen to me or I'll shoot you

Actually, a better way for young people here in Canada to get more political support is if they ACTUALLY VOTE!

[Zamo]

I am not a big fan of the .308 for hunting, or target shooting, so it get's kicked of the list. If you think you may want to hunt someday, go with 7mm Win. Mag. If not, if you just want to "plink" targets then it's really hard to beat .223 for accuracy, availibility and cost. Other rounds like the 6mm PPC shoot better, but really HAVE to be hand loaded 'cause commercial ammo just isn't there. .22-250 is another full power great target/varmint round if you want more than a .223.

I have recently (last deer season) fallen in love with .270 myself.

As to rifles? I am partial to the Winchester Model 70 and or Rem. 700 BDL. for bolt actions. I don't care much for the Ruger, it's action always seems awfully coarse and rough to me. Though I have several friends who swear by them and a few of them are Guides up in the Denali, in AK.

The only tip I may offer is spend a little extra and get stainless. If you're out on the wet coast like me, it will pay for itself very quickly.

You really need to tell us more of what kind of shooting you plan on doing for anything other than a "general" recommendation.

Zamo

[marcusm]

Finland also makes some nice rifles. Try this website for info.

http://www.sako.fi/

Marcus

[Guest Bloodlust]

well i agree with markIV and BAR

the .223 is a great all round rifle (i mostly like the speedy flat trajectory)

personally i would like to get a .243....

as for the bolt action versus semi debate....unless you are carlos hathcock(sic)

99.9% of the shooters out there will miss due to poor aim rather than the difference between the two types of firing.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV:

I concur with BAR that .223 would be a very good choice. BANGs like a real gun, no appreciable recoil, cheap military practice ammo abundant, and ballistically excellent.

I should have suggested it, but I'm a hunter. The .223 (5.56mm) can actually kill deer neatly (shot placement is everything!) but is not recommended for that.

The Remington 700 is available in .223. Again, looking at this from your perspective, that Rem is an industry standard- there are more parts, kits, scope mounts, and gunsmith familiarity with it than almost any other bolt-gun out there.

I love arcane exotica but you'd be nuts to buy that kind of thing for a first gun. I love old Remington Rolling Blocks and I'm tickled with Babra's .43- I have a couple .43 (11mm) Spanish and they rock. Good luck getting ammo at K-Mart (sorry, Canadian Tire).

wadepm: I paid compliments to the M1 but I note that Springfields continued to be issued as sniper weapons in the US through Korea. We are talking about incremental, not geometric, improvements in accuracy but it's that last 5% that makes the difference.

Bullethead: Point taken on the flintlock (been thinkin' about one). Archery has some similar issues. I like the notion that despite your best efforts, the damned thing may not go off at all- kind of like units in CM. Too real. Think about what that was like when the Iroquois ruled the night!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Rother]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bullethead:

BTW, somebody mentioned 60 rounds for 1 bear? Where were they hitting?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be fair half of them where 7.62x39 and weren't even breaking the hide. My 7.62 NATO could break the hide but couldn't break the bones without at least two shots in the same place. Most of the rounds were stuck in the paws or bounced of the head. A few busted through the chest and did the job about 10 feet short of us. I shoot a .375H&H now for everything. With a muzzle break the kick isn't too bad at all. Actually less than most 300 mags I've shot.

Rother

[cward]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wadepm:

They made a sniper version of the M1 called the M1C and M1D. Because of the top loading they had to mount the scope to the side of the receiver. Then they had to add a cheek pad to the stock so the shooters eye would line up with the scope! They also manufactered a match version, designated NM, that could shoot better than 2 MOA.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well the only problem here is that the damned things of any quality are way over the $1k mark (whats that abou $4k canadian?)

but are truly beautiful..

As for myself I got an SKS for my first rifle, Cheap, fun to shoot and inaccurate as hell.. while I like it, I cant really recommend it as they are hyper inflated.. and in reality it really is a $150 rifle..

Then I got my M1 Garand from the Civilian Marksmanship Program (www.ODCMP.com) It is truly a work of art.. June 1945, all original . And as for accuracy, I must say that it isnt as accurate as the 1903, but It is impressive in the right hands. (a fellow at my club shot a 95-3 at 200 yards offhand.. WOW! With a service rifle!) and the ammo is cheap and plentiful (10 for 20rnds) a descent M1 should probably go in the $500-600 range..

If I could afford it.. I would like an Ar-15, but it really isnt in the cards..

My advice is stick to military rounds.. Cheap and available, Proven in combat.. and the most important thing.. Whatever you get, Learn it inside out and practice practice practice

[vcents]

I just finished restoring a Mauser Model 98 (8mm) and I love it. Needed a lot of work to bring it back from the dead. It is the first "classic" rifle I have bought, and I am planning on shooting with it in a CMP qualifer so I can buy a couple of M1 Garands.

I bought the Mauser because 1) it was the primary firearm of German troops and 2) it has something of a historical value. I found out that restoring the rifle was more fun that shooting it. And, as a bonus, it shoots like a dream.

To bad H&K doesn't sell MP5's to the general public. THAT is what I really want.

As for websites, check out www.auctionarms.com - has a lot of weapons availible for purchase.

[howardb]

I got a Sauer 200 STR cal. 6,5 (sporting rifle). Only been shot with at ranges between 100 - 450 meters. Bolt action rifles is the way to go if accuracy is your thing, this comes down to the fact that you get the same pressure on the chamber on each shot. I know for a fact that our anti-terror team use this rifle. Saw one of our guys in the paper with one after he'd taken out a terrorist (hijacked a plane several years ago).