Guest Pillar Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 I'm going to buy a rifle. I don't know much about the available brands etc. I've basically taught myself a lot about weapons and shooting techniques based on interest, but have only shot once in my life. I'm living in Canada and plan to get my Firearms licence this year and buy a rifle. I'd like a recommendation from anyone here who knows anything about guns on what good accurate rifle is for civilian use. I'd prefer something with a large round too (not a .22 calibre rifle). Thanks for the help. PS -- Any Websites I should look at? PPS -- I already tried to buy the PSG-1...Unfortunately, my government doesn't trust us with it Thanks again, Pillar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TURBO Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 Pillar what are you going to use it for? Long range target, self defence ect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'd like a recommendation from anyone here who knows anything about guns on what good accurate rifle is for civilian use. I'd prefer something with a large round too (not a .22 calibre rifle).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, the .30cal rifle family can kill anything in North America. Anything bigger is overkill unless you go to Africa. So you're talking .30-06, .308, and maybe .270 or 7mm. My own favorite caliber is .270, which is a .30-06 case necked down to 7mm from 7.62. It gives a flatter trajectory while still having essentially the same size bullet for Canadian big game. As for the rifle itself, most are available in a wide range of popular calibers. I prefer bolt actions for hunting and my favorite of these is the Remmington 700. This is an extremely accurate weapon. ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argie Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bullethead: Well, the .30cal rifle family can kill anything in North America.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Even presidents? Ariel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 Ariel said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Even presidents?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sure, but for some reason the season for them is never open, so it's kinda moot ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 Good questions and sound advice. The primary question is, what is the rifle for? The .308 (aka 7.62mm NATO) is a perfect choice for all-round North American big game hunting, or medium-high caliber target. Remington 700 is a fine choice. I killed an antelope in Argie's backyard with my host's Rem. 700 .308. Tasty bugger, too. Being a military standard, practice ammo is cheap. I like Rugers (they're a scale model of the Mauser action, with which I am very familiar) and have an M-77 in .270, which is marginally better for some things that probably don't interest you, and worse for others (more expensive ammo for sure). The M77 is also available in .308 and other calibers. The optics (the scope) on a big-bore are as important, and expensive, as the rifle itself, if you're serious about long-range. Zeiss is the best and I can't afford it. Leupold is outstanding. DON'T buy a Nikon. If you just want to spray-and-play, the Ruger Mini-14 and Mini-30 are loads of fun, but Canada might have a problem with semi-autos. Personally, I would still recommend a .22 before the big gun, because the principles are the same and the ammo is lots cheaper. The Ruger 10/22 is a perfect starter gun and you will never tire of it. Many attachments available. Old military rifles are a bargain and a blast. Decent surplus Lee-Enfield .303s are a dime-a-dozen and suitable for hunting. German Mausers were snapped up at the reasonable prices long ago, but many of the South American and Spanish versions are serviceable hunting and plinking guns for under $200 USD. Make sure it is in a commonly available caliber like 8mm. Lastly, in the unlikely event that you want the weapon for self-defense, a rifle is a very poor choice for a home-owner and worse for an apartment-dweller. A pistol is arguably worse, unless you plan to spend a lot of time at the range. THE universal weapon system is a pump 12-gauge shotgun. It works for any sport, and functions as your own personal cannon on short notice. It would be my first choice as a weapon in almost any non-military circumstance. No home should be without one. As I reflect, I realize that I would feel naked if I didn't own one of each of the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 Great advice thanks everyone! The Rifle will be used for Long Range shooting at targets. I'm going for accuracy here over anything else. Self Defence? Only if I ever have to become my own personal sniper in a war or something My neighborhood is very safe so I don't need any weapons of that sort. I'm also reading the "Sniper" field manual from the US Military, very interesting. I'm 19, so if my life turns to complete hell and I feel like punishing myself I may join some sort of Military organization that looks for people with good aim So, since I'm looking for accuracy I'd like something that is suitably large calibre, because I want to get used to the kick, and I want something that I can attach scopes too etc. Remington 700 sounds like what I'm after based on the posts above, but I still haven't much clue PS -- Why Bolt? I know most Sniper rifles use the bolt, does it enhance the accuracy or something similar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage2 Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 This thread should be closed. It is waaaay off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 Please ignore him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 Bolts enhance accuracy and to a lesser extent, reliability. The breech is locked into a closed position and remains so until cycled by the human, unlike recoil-operated weapons. Fewer moving parts means more accuracy. The M1903 Springfield will shoot rings around the M1 Garand, because the platform is so stable. In the gas-operated Garand, the receiver is being forced back by siphoned-off gas from the discharge while the round is still moving through the barrel. This translates into barrel (or weapon) movement, and a millimeter of movement is a miss by a bunch at sniper ranges. Garand was a fine rifle and only an on-topic example- the same would be true of any automatic weapon. Target rifles have much heavier (thicker) barrels than hunting rifles, and are often specially bedded, to reduce vibration. They also have special or modified triggers to reduce mechanical lock-time and over-travel (when the trigger continues to move past the firing point) for the same reasons. A lot of fine tuning goes into tightening your groups beyond the capabilities of a standard infantry or hunting rifle. Target shooters worry about things like whether a bolt's locking lugs are in the front or the back, and the relative humidity. The "barrel band" on WWII military rifles, which clamps the wooden stock to the barrel up near the muzzle, is anathema to target shooters, because it induces distortion in the barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybeq Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pillar: So, since I'm looking for accuracy I'd like something that is suitably large calibre, because I want to get used to the kick, and I want something that I can attach scopes too etc. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The problem with starting out with a large-bore centerfire to "get used to the kick" is that you can (and most likely will) develop a flinch. Target shooters all over the world practice with .22's to "beat the flinch" that unconciously develops with repeated firing of hard-kicking rifles. I think anyone who owns a rifle owes to themselves to get a .22 also. As to which centerfire rifle to get? Any bolt-action from a major manufacturer will serve you well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rother Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 Alot of good suggestions. I'd recommend a 30-'06 at least. Contrary to what Bullethead says a .30 cal is enough in the lower 48 but in Alaska in Canada it can be as useless as a BB gun. I never thought so until the day it took almost 60 .30 cal rounds to stop a grizzly. I know better now. The one thing I always look for is a control feed bolt. It grabs the round out of the magazine and holds it instead of just pushing the round in loose. It really sucks when you drop a round or get a double feed. Make sure you get a rifle with iron sights too. Scopes are nice but don't always work as planned. Iron sights almost always work. If you can afford a non-Japanese Weatherby buy it. If you can find a pre '64 Winchester buy it. Rother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argie Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 Have fear, Mark IV. The cievo rojo revenge is horrible. They got FALs! Ariel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCrawler Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 Well, the current favorite rifle that I own is a Springfield Armory SAR-4800 which is basically a Brazilian FN-FAL in .308 cal. LOTS of bang for the buck ($1200 before they were banned from further import here in the USA). You may not be able to own one in Canada, but if so, you can probably find a cheap surplus one from the Canadian military. Standard 20-round box magazine, but 30-rounders can be had from several companies. IIRC, the Canadians used the 'inch-pattern' FAL's similar to the Brits. Parts are more expensive and are harder to find than the 'metric-pattern' rifles. Here is all the information you will ever need on this outstanding rifle: FN-Fal Files [This message has been edited by NCrawler (edited 08-05-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Reece Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pillar: I'm going to buy a rifle. I don't know much about the available brands etc. I've basically taught myself a lot about weapons and shooting techniques based on interest, but have only shot once in my life. I'm living in Canada and plan to get my Firearms licence this year and buy a rifle. I'd like a recommendation from anyone here who knows anything about guns on what good accurate rifle is for civilian use. I'd prefer something with a large round too (not a .22 calibre rifle). Thanks for the help. PS -- Any Websites I should look at? PPS -- I already tried to buy the PSG-1...Unfortunately, my government doesn't trust us with it Thanks again, Pillar<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Pillar, If you've got the money for it, the best rifle by far, value wise and for sheer firepower and enjoyment,as well as ease of use, is the Browning Automatic Rifle in 308 caliber with the BOSS [ballistically Optimized Shooting System]system attached.I have killed a few deer, turkey as well as a coyote with mine, hunting these hills of WV for the last 25 years.Of all my guns I loved it the best. Dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 Interesting comments. But the man is not going hunting! He clarified that he is interested in long-range target! So, with that in mind .30-06 is overkill, painful, and expensive for bench shooting. Stopping power is of zero concern (60 rounds of .30 for a grizzly? Ugly story.). I like the BOSS system and muzzle brakes in general. I believe it is available on the Browning bolt-actions as well. No way is the auto-loader gonna keep up with a tuned 700 or any other good bolt at the range. "Black" rifles (modern military "assault" type weapons) are at the top of every gun-grabbers hit list. They are expensive, accurate, fun, and a high risk investment in Canada. Argie: My host also had an FAL (you need back-up against the antelope, they'll tear a man up! ), but I opted for the traditional elegance of the classic bolt. No president was ever assassinated with a .30 cal. rifle, and only Kennedy was shot with a rifle- a WWII military Italian 6.5mm Carcano. Lincoln, Garfield, and McKinley were all killed with cheap handguns; Reagan was the only one to be shot and survive, and that was with a .22 with exploding bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Reece Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV: Interesting comments. But the man is not going hunting! He clarified that he is interested in long-range target! So, with that in mind .30-06 is overkill, painful, and expensive for bench shooting. Stopping power is of zero concern (60 rounds of .30 for a grizzly? Ugly story.). I like the BOSS system and muzzle brakes in general. I believe it is available on the Browning bolt-actions as well. No way is the auto-loader gonna keep up with a tuned 700 or any other good bolt at the range. "Black" rifles (modern military "assault" type weapons) are at the top of every gun-grabbers hit list. They are expensive, accurate, fun, and a high risk investment in Canada. Argie: My host also had an FAL (you need back-up against the antelope, they'll tear a man up! ), but I opted for the traditional elegance of the classic bolt. No president was ever assassinated with a .30 cal. rifle, and only Kennedy was shot with a rifle- a WWII military Italian 6.5mm Carcano. Lincoln, Garfield, and McKinley were all killed with cheap handguns; Reagan was the only one to be shot and survive, and that was with a .22 with exploding bullets.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Try it, you'll see that gas recoil and BOSS system combined make the BAR as accurate as any Browning bolt action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 Couple of questions... What is "The Flinch"? If you go to the remmington web site they have a category of guns under "Custom" that seem to be designed for greater accuracy over distance. Is that correct? I don't have enough money to buy the big stuff, yet So I'll probably have to go with something a little cheaper. I will look into the BAR and FAL however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pillar: What is "The Flinch"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Psychological anticipation of recoil, that causes the shooter to tense (unconsciously) at the moment of firing. The more punishing the gun, the more likely that you will develop some degree of it. A major cause of missed shots and poor groups. The cure is mostly self-discipline and technique- breathing control, a nice light trigger, stance, and proper squeeze (the instant of detonation should be a miniature surprise). Hardware can help- recoil pad, hearing protection (also worth spending a few extra bucks), and muzzle brake or porting (diffuses exhaust gas in multiple directions to reduce felt recoil). Not over-gunning in the first place is a big help. Grizzly stoppers aren't much fun to shoot more than a couple of times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAR Posted August 6, 2000 Share Posted August 6, 2000 Pillar - I would recommend a .223 for your first rifle. Many manufacturers in the US (Bushmaster in Maine, Olympic Arms in Washington state, many many more - search them on the Web), though I am not familiar with the export restrictions to Canada. Try hitting the NRA website for links to manufacturers. You may also want to get into reloading after a while as you can make your own rounds to your own specs as you gain experience. I just picked up a Dillon 550 and have started reloading my 30-06 brass that I piled up for 2 yrs on the range. But make sure that you are committed to shooting before buying all the gear - not cheap to start off, but will pay off big time after a few years. It seems that 30-06 is getting a little scarce, though I unfortunately live in Massachussetts, and all the damn Democrats here are doing everything in their power to start a confiscation program going here. Have to agree with getting a .22 as your first rifle, take it out to your nearest range and get to know some of the people there. I have never met a fellow shooter that wouldn't take the time to kibbitz with someone new and even let you fire their rifle/pistol a bit after you have proven you can handle them safely. Which brings me to another point - take a firearms safety course/hunting safety course please. They will familiarize you with many types of firearms and can also put you in touch with reputable dealers. Be safe and good luck ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted August 6, 2000 Share Posted August 6, 2000 If ya want one just for the coolness factor and if ya live in the Toronto area, I got a Mauser 71/84 for sale. All numbers match. Dated 1888 with Spandau factory stamp and Royal Cypher. 11mm (.43 cal). Polished receiver. Excellent condition. Make me an offer. ------------------ It's a mother-beautiful bridge and it's gonna be THERE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted August 6, 2000 Share Posted August 6, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by argie: Even presidents? Ariel<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Excuse me, but I think this comment and the following post is in extreme poor taste! ------------------ Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wadepm Posted August 6, 2000 Share Posted August 6, 2000 I would like to disagree with MarkIV on the accuracy of the M1. I would put an M1 up against a bolt action over open sites any day. There is zero movement of the operating rod as the bullet is moving down the barrel. The gas port is located about an inch from the end of the barrel, by the time the gas has started pushing the rod the bullet is long gone. I have an M1 and its a beaut to fire although the first time I shot it I did a major flinch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argie Posted August 6, 2000 Share Posted August 6, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wayne: Excuse me, but I think this comment and the following post is in extreme poor taste! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You are excused I like "Bad taste" Ariel p.s. Taking the really serious things with even a bit of bad taste humour helps to avoid real bullets flying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted August 6, 2000 Share Posted August 6, 2000 You know, if you really want to be hard core about fighting "the flinch", get yourself a flintlock. With it taking a good part of a second after trigger pull for the bullet to start moving, you simply MUST eradicate every trace of flinching to have any hope of hitting the target. The worst problem is a pan full of powder going POOF right in your face, the smoke from which totally blocks your sight picture, again before the bullet starts moving. I learned to shoot on a flintlock and it really helped me later in life. BTW, somebody mentioned 60 rounds for 1 bear? Where were they hitting? ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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