Off map artillary support

[user1000]

On a foggy or misty day, while calling in an 81mm mortar barrage on enemy troops under some trees. I had a green area marked ahead of me for a barrage, a couple of spotting rounds are way off and finally 1 lands so far off, that he likes (WAY BEHIND WHERE IT IS SUPPOSE TO LAND) he radio okays it in. The barrage resulted in taking 12 friendly soldiers KIA  because mortars landed right on top of the spotter just about.

 

So why did he ok the spotting round behind him as an on target for the rest of the barrage intended for the area in front of him? Also spotting round he ok'd and where the barrage took place was way off.

[Michael Emrys]

15 hours ago, user1000 said:

So why did he ok the spotting round behind him as an on target for the rest of the barrage intended for the area in front of him? Also spotting round he ok'd and where the barrage took place was way off.

I've noticed this kind of thing increasingly over the last year or two. I.e., calling for barrage fire long before a spotting round has gotten even close—of for that matter has fallen where the spotter can observe it. I have to wonder if the battery is being cleared to open fire if some time limit has expired whether they have gotten a round on target or not.

Michael

[user1000]

Imagine being the guy, someone behind front lines who has to answer all the calls from the troops in the field. How would they have to order it so everyone gets their turn at having support? Was it total chaos?

Interesting, so many thing it could be.

A.) Maybe the spotter can't see the through the fog to tell where the spotting round is but can just hear the explosion? Why would you risk the lives of your troops doing this? Maybe going slower instead of immediate in bad weather?

C.)Sometimes I notice if there is more than 1 barrage going on the spotter can't distinguish the spotting round he called in from someone else strike. (too much going on)

B.) It could have been an enemy ai strike on me, which i doubt since I was in fox holes.

C.) This is out there, but if the artillery firing is getting calls from other off map troops for support (if this is in the game even) depending on if they can only fire at one target at a time.  If it was a shared communication I can see how the firing could get thrown way off and mistakes can be made.

 

Edited January 5, 2017 by user1000

[akd]

On 1/4/2017 at 7:31 AM, user1000 said:

On a foggy or misty day, while calling in an 81mm mortar barrage on enemy troops under some trees. I had a green area marked ahead of me for a barrage, a couple of spotting rounds are way off and finally 1 lands so far off, that he likes (WAY BEHIND WHERE IT IS SUPPOSE TO LAND) he radio okays it in. The barrage resulted in taking 12 friendly soldiers KIA  because mortars landed right on top of the spotter just about.

 

So why did he ok the spotting round behind him as an on target for the rest of the barrage intended for the area in front of him? Also spotting round he ok'd and where the barrage took place was way off.

If the observer cannot see the fall of the spotting round, another is fired with the same chance of error as the previous.  This is repeated until the observer "gives up" and orders fire for effect on the last spotting round location.  Because the error is random and the observer has no subjective ability to make a judgement based on the direction of the fall of the round in relation to himself and friendly forces, this can sometimes result in friendly fire.  Although the mechanism that produces the result is artificial, the outcome is not (that observation in poor conditions can result in terrible errors).

What we lack in game is some more direct feedback from the observer: "Dude, I cannot see the fall of these rounds.  Do you really want me to just guess?"

[Rinaldi]

34 minutes ago, akd said:

If the observer cannot see the fall of the spotting round, another is fired with the same chance of error as the previous.  This is repeated until the observer "gives up" and orders fire for effect on the last spotting round location.  Because the error is random and the observer has no subjective ability to make a judgement based on the direction of the fall of the round in relation to himself and friendly forces, this can sometimes result in friendly fire.  Although the mechanism that produces the result is artificial, the outcome is not (that observation in poor conditions can result in terrible errors).

What we lack in game is some more direct feedback from the observer: "Dude, I cannot see the fall of these rounds.  Do you really want me to just guess?"

Wishlist: actual dynamic splash chatter. Battery firing spotting round calls splash, if FO does not observe impact in LOS, player doesn't hear splash return audio. Player takes that as his cue to adjust.

As it is now its much more of a judgement call as to when to call for adjusted fire. I will admit though, I've had splendid luck with artillery firing on where I want it to go. I cannot recall the last time I called for adjusted fire. In terms of ETA and behaviour CM's artillery system remains second to none, but we can always hope for more.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Rinaldi
Added sentence

[MOS:96B2P]

3 hours ago, akd said:

If the observer cannot see the fall of the spotting round, another is fired with the same chance of error as the previous.  This is repeated until the observer "gives up" and orders fire for effect on the last spotting round location.  <Snip>

This is interesting and I have seen this play out in two ways.  I think there is a minimum two spotting rounds fired per mission except for when a TRP is used. (Please correct if I'm wrong).  After the second spotting round if the spotter can't see, the asset continues to fire spotting rounds.  IIRC I have had this spotting round phase drag on for four or five turns firing several spotting rounds.  I then intervene and adjust or cancel the mission.

The second way it plays out is the two spotting rounds are fired and then an off target FFE starts.

What I can't figure out is what makes one spotter continue to fire spotting rounds trying to get the correct target and the other spotter give up after the customary two rounds and FFE.  Experience of the spotter maybe?  I will have to pay more attention but in PBEM games my spotters are typically veterans so not sure that is the answer.

The next question (after what causes this) is what to do about it when it happens?  Basically two choices: adjust or cancel and start over.  I have done both but I'm not sure adjusting helps much and the time factor in starting over is often not practical.  

The great game mechanic @womble once typed something to the effect: "Adjusting" the mission will not inherently make it any more accurate. All the accuracy possible has been dialed in during the "Spotting" phase.  (Circa 9 June 2015)  If this is true then maybe adjusting is not even a good choice?   

 

2 hours ago, Rinaldi said:

<Snip> Player takes that as his cue to adjust.  <Snip> 

I think a cue we sometimes get now is when/if the spotter continues to call for additional spotting rounds.  Then, if paying attention, we know something is amiss and might hit friendly positions.  Not sure if adjusting is the answer (see above).  And of course if the spotter calls FFE after two wild spotting rounds there is no  cue to warn us...........  

[TheForwardObserver]

It's hard to have this discussion because the game has its own abstracted version of the sequence of subsequent corrections.  But with that said, IRL the process behind continuing to adjust unobserved rounds is usually to request an up 200 Height of Burst correction, after which time the round should be spotted, and the proper adjustments can be made.

EDIT:  If HOB can't be adjusted, the Observer would hopefully just send EOM and initiate a new Request for Fire, using refined data.   Unless they're a cowboy, in which case there are types of corrections called bold corrections, whereby logic and process are abandoned in favor of the Observer's experience.  Such a situation might be, the observer has a pretty good idea that the round fell in that ravine, 400 meters away to the left of the target, so he says right 400.  

Edited January 5, 2017 by TheForwardObserver