Blind tankers?

[Dar]

Playing CMBN 3.0 and really getting annoyed at motionless AFVs set for ambush getting spotted and whacked by enemy tanks on the move.  Multiple times I've had units just sit there while an enemy drives right across their 12 o'clock completely undetected, yet the moving unit not only spots the motionless one first but has time to rotate their gun to their own 2 or 3 o'clock and get off multiple shots.  

Are units not penalized for spotting when on the move?  Are moving units not more easily spotted than stationary ones?  

Yes, I've RTFM.  I've set covered arcs, opened up the hatches/exposed the commander, made sure the "hide" toggle is off...  

Attached screenshot shows one example--StuG in hull down position set to ambush any unit that comes around the bend in the hedgerows.  A Sherman drives right up and nails the StuG with one shot.  All I see are sound contacts.

Bad luck, FoW, whatever--I can understand that once in a while, but it's far too common in my experience.  If anyone has any suggestions, I'd be more than willing to give them a try.

[gnarly]

Not that I have BN, but I'm sure the first question the next poster will ask, is, can you share the save file?

[user1000]

Looks like your greenhorn stug crew ran into some sherman veterans

[Dar]

I didn't realize they had to reach E-5 to get Mark I Eyeballs issued.

[womble]

In the specific example you've given, the Sherman is getting the benefit of concealment, in the shape of the bocage corner it's still half-hidden behind, whereas the StuG is sitting baldly out in the open. Of course the M4 will see the StuG instantly. The spotting rules are the same for the AI/other player, and there is a disadvantage to being the moving party in a "fast draw" scenario (tests have been done). The M4 wasn't blind, so it's not that tanks just don't see well, is it? If this is how you usually set up ambushes, it's not a surprise that you get consistently crappy results.

[Bulletpoint]

I my last game, I had three Panserschrek teams, one Panzerfaust team, and a Maarder Tank Destroyer all pointing with clear LOF at a critical spot. At ranges from 10m to about 150m. When the enemy tank arrived, none of the teams spotted it.

It just sat there and then spotted my schreck team sitting behind a hedgerow just in front of it, proceeded to gun them down.. still nobody spotted the tank. I had to rush over a sixth team the following turn to take care of that tank. Anecdotal evidence for sure, but still I can't understand how it could remain unspotted.

[StieliAlpha]

4 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

I my last game, I had three Panserschrek teams, one Panzerfaust team, and a Maarder Tank Destroyer all pointing with clear LOF at a critical spot. At ranges from 10m to about 150m. When the enemy tank arrived, none of the teams spotted it.

It just sat there and then spotted my schreck team sitting behind a hedgerow just in front of it, proceeded to gun them down.. still nobody spotted the tank. I had to rush over a sixth team the following turn to take care of that tank. Anecdotal evidence for sure, but still I can't understand how it could remain unspotted.

Ohoh, that sounds familiar.

I must admit, I hated the outcome, but could live with not spotting the guys in the hedges in this kind of congested area and hectic situation.

What I found annoying, is that the first tank did not spot the guys in the building. For them I have been spotting quite a while.

[Bulletpoint]

17 minutes ago, StieliAlpha said:

I must admit, I hated the outcome, but could live with not spotting the guys in the hedges in this kind of congested area and hectic situation.

Well, that's the thing, your tank spotted my guys in the hedge, but they didn't spot your tank. At 10m range, regular unsuppressed, in C2, looking in the right direction, having a big fat sound contact marker...  The tank just rolled up to them from the front. The only way I can explain it was the tiny thin bit of smoke in the air, but just so much more impressive that the tank spotted the infantry then.

19 minutes ago, StieliAlpha said:

What I found annoying, is that the first tank did not spot the guys in the building. For them I have been spotting quite a while.

That has a logical explanation though. They were on the second floor, but there was a tall bocage blocking your LOS, so the only way you could have spotted them was to move forward into Panzerfaust range.

[StieliAlpha]

1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

Well, that's the thing, your tank spotted my guys in the hedge, but they didn't spot your tank. At 10m range, regular unsuppressed, in C2, looking in the right direction, having a big fat sound contact marker...  The tank just rolled up to them from the front. The only way I can explain it was the tiny thin bit of smoke in the air, but just so much more impressive that

Ah, that's interesting indeed. From my side, I had the impression the tank had spotted nothing and was just firing blindly away....

[Dar]

9 hours ago, womble said:

In the specific example you've given, the Sherman is getting the benefit of concealment, in the shape of the bocage corner it's still half-hidden behind, whereas the StuG is sitting baldly out in the open. Of course the M4 will see the StuG instantly. The spotting rules are the same for the AI/other player, and there is a disadvantage to being the moving party in a "fast draw" scenario (tests have been done). The M4 wasn't blind, so it's not that tanks just don't see well, is it? If this is how you usually set up ambushes, it's not a surprise that you get consistently crappy results.

Replayed that same scenario again after my initial post.  This time the StuG nailed the first Sherman to round the bend.  Then it was apparently so blinded by its own muzzle blast that another Sherman looped around the first one and closed half the distance to the StuG nailing it in one shot--the StuG never even saw it.  

[womble]

Spotting involves random elements. Being in concealment is not a binary thing (that takes defilade). You got unucky the first time, and rolled badly to see the Sherman through the leaves; the Sherman rolled what it needed (not very much) to spot you in the open. Second time through, the odds favoured you to start with. Really difficult for anyone to assess how unlucky you were not to spot the second Sherman without video or a savegame to judge smoke obscuration, but again, it was a "quick draw" spotting situation and the dice rolls (and cycle timing - I'll come to that) favoured the M4.

My comment about cycle timing: units do not spot continuously. It's simply not possible to arrange for that to be the case on domestic hardware in the architecture available. So elements "take it in turns" to spot. The default, maximum time between spotting assessments (the spotting cycle) is 7s. The frequency goes up as units get closer. But there is turn-taking going on, in the sense that not everyone spots at the same time, so each unit's individual cycle can be up to 3.5s out of step with any other given unit. Who's spotting "first" (measured as "after any given moment") is arbitrary. Spotting is not deterministic, so a missed spotting roll can mean the opponent gets 10s or so of spotting time before you get another. Of course, in your example, the units are really close together, so the spotting cycles are almost certainly about as short as they'll ever get, but Shermans are fast and nippy, so it doesn't take long to close and it's entirely possible for you to get unlucky once or twice as the stricken tank's mate scurries through the smoke. Had your loader finished getting the next round up the spout?

[Dar]

19 hours ago, womble said:

My comment about cycle timing: units do not spot continuously. It's simply not possible to arrange for that to be the case on domestic hardware in the architecture available. So elements "take it in turns" to spot. The default, maximum time between spotting assessments (the spotting cycle) is 7s. The frequency goes up as units get closer. But there is turn-taking going on, in the sense that not everyone spots at the same time, so each unit's individual cycle can be up to 3.5s out of step with any other given unit. Who's spotting "first" (measured as "after any given moment") is arbitrary. Spotting is not deterministic, so a missed spotting roll can mean the opponent gets 10s or so of spotting time before you get another. Of course, in your example, the units are really close together, so the spotting cycles are almost certainly about as short as they'll ever get, but Shermans are fast and nippy, so it doesn't take long to close and it's entirely possible for you to get unlucky once or twice as the stricken tank's mate scurries through the smoke. Had your loader finished getting the next round up the spout?

Thanks, womble--I can certainly understand that limitation given the hardware and number of calculations that need to be going on, and how that can grow exponentially with the addition of a single extra unit.  I'll be keeping that in mind in future plays and try to account for it with increased distance, more units, etc.