CM: Warsaw vs NATO ??? Please?

[JAGDPANZER]

Okay, this is my first post (infact I just came to the forum today), and I sure hope this hasn't been brought up before as I haven't seen any.

I've always loved WWII games, and CM is definitely the best. If I like something more than WWII, then it is the hypothetical scenarios of Warsaw/NATO conflict.

I just wonder that with the robust and versatile coding behind CM, I am sure it won't take long to make a sequel of some sort depicting a Cold War conflict, or Middle East wars. Sure there'd be differences in calculating missile weaponary as well as increased air presence and such.

I am sure that there are alot of other enthusiast players who's enjoyed Steel PantherII, and would love a CM-quality game doing the same time period.

So, BigTimeSoft, here's the hint And we support you.

JAGDPANZER

[Minnesota Joe]

Chances are it's never goanna happen. Why? Becuase IMHO the maps for a modern battlefield would have to be much larger than those in CM. This is because of the imprved technology and longer ranges for weapons. Close combat rarely ever happens in modern battles.

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Ah scheist.

[Lorak]

Jagdpanzer,

Would be great to have something like that in a 3D battlefield. But I don't see it as possible. Helicoptors, planes, missles, ect... just can't be throw in very easily. The biggest problem is the ranges that modern battle takes place at. The maps would have to be so dame big, it just isn't practical.

If your looking for a good game though, you might want to check out tac-ops. It is for sell here at battlefront also.

It isn't 3d but it is a really good game.

Lorak

[JAGDPANZER]

Yeah, the size of the battlefield would potentially be the biggest obstacle, as T-80/M1A1 engagements could happen 2 klicks away.

I suppose alot of this has to do w/ CPU and DirectX limitations, as the gameworld texture would be alot to handle. But I am sure it could be done, as long as there's enough public support for it ($$$ for you, BigTime

With all the modern military hardware, it is such a shame not to hypothesize some battles. Well, I think I'll be really satisfied with just some 1960s or 70s battles. It's really not all that different from WWII in terms of gameworld, LOS, etc. Tactics will change for sure, the battles would probably be more 3D as air elements would be important, but it could be done the same way that CM has handled it abstractly. Missiles aren't that different from Panzerfaust, just longer range, and probably not affected by LOS (if air-directed) or straight trajectory (if infantry launched).

Just think of the possibilities of a squad of US mechanized Inf ambushing a column of T-72........with AH-64 fired upon by ZSU-23 and all......the possiblies are very very exciting indeed.

later all, now i've gotta go back to my CM game now

JagdPanzer

[Cuchulainn]

I've been thinking about this and the range issue in particular.

Setting aside for one moment the extra effort in a whole new range of vehicles, etc, and remembering that Steve and Charles have the range of CM1 to CCCM4 to finish first (and Lord alone knows what sort of PC's we'll be using by then!), there must be some possibilities.

Many Vietnam era battles were at comparatively close range (one could do a good assault on a Firebase scenario), certainly they would fit on some of the 'huge' maps I've seen.

Some of the 1982 Falkands/Malvinas War assaults would also be possible.

NATO vs Warsaw Pact WOULD be tough though.

Can anyone else think of 'close in' actions that would fit in with the current emphasis?

Would the Korean War be to long range?

[Aacooper]

BigTime posted on this topic a long time ago, and they said an 80's or 70's NATO/PACT matchup would be interesting. The concern about long ranges isn't necessarily the case considering the terrain in Central Germany (that's what I remember they said -- I've never been there). Certainly, if you wanted to model the Gulf War, then maps would need to be pretty big. Vietnam would be interesting, and so would Korea. The Korean War was fought mostly with WW2 weaponry, in some cases with weapons used in WW2. The only exceptions I can think of are airplanes, and the M46/47 tank. Task Force Smith found itself using the same bazookas modelled in CM -- they hadn't gotten the Super Bazooka.

[Emos]

Wow....I was thinking of posting about the VERY same topic (glad to see someone beat me to it). I think that some fantasy scenarios between NATO and Warsaw Pact forces would make for a wonderful game! As mentioned previously, the distances involved on the modern battlefield would be a programming and gameplay challenge (depending on terrain).

Another potential problem would be the technological gaps between NATO and Soviet military hardware (witness the utter annihilation of Soviet armor in the Gulf War)

In spite of that, I would still love to play with modern hardware in a CM game! Potential scenarios could take place in the mid to late 80's with the Warsaw Pact invading Europe or Korea. Ahhh.....I would love to see Hind-Ds, BMPs, BRDMs and T-80s being reduced to scrap metal on the battlefield

Or go even further and think of scenarios taking place five years down the road with possible prototype equipment (like Peoples' General).

BTW, I just received CM and absolutely LOVE IT! How soon before I'm assimilated I am a newbie when it comes to wargaming of this caliber....my previous "wargaming" experience has been Panzer General, Conflict for the 8-bit Nintendo (a real gem of a game for its day) and Military Madness for the Turbographix 16....nothing "realistic". Once I cut my teeth on the AI a bit (I'm being humbled right now) I'll have to have some of you grognards show me the PBEM ropes! Cheers

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"You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"

--Dr. Strangelove--

[JAGDPANZER]

Oh man, Emos, CONFLICT and Military Madness are the 2 of my favorite games from the old.....cool. (hmmm, anybody know a link to Nintendo CONFLICT ROM???)

Yeah, the Soviet's Quantity vs Nato's Quality would just be totally awesome to play with. CM lends itself so well to conflict such as this, because all the major elements are there already, WWII is the beginning of a 3-dimensional battlefield, and CM models it so well. There's gotta be changes in game mechanics (but as we see the speed at which BTS comes out with patches, it could be done, or in several steps). And just think of the night-vision advantages of NATO forces, and that it would allow NATO player to recognize "red stars" easier at night....or using smoke dischargers to evade ATGM....or maybe SCUD launchers as off-map support,etc.....lots of things could be done, kinda just like CM does it now, only much much more. there'd alot of play balancing issues, but the end result would definitely be worth it.

Speaking of possible scenarios, Acooper is right about Gulf War being too big, as it's just vast desert, and tanks could engage from very long ranges, but the more plain/woods combo of Germany would just need be somewhat bigger than current game field. There can even be small urban skirmishes, etc. or campaign that takes place over several smaller maps.

And Vietnam war would definitely be another great period for CM2??? Jungle warfare would be very nice.......LRRP, firebase defense, historic encounters, legendary feats... hmmmmm, anybody wanna be the sniper picking off VC officers ?

And there's Mid-East conflict, once again, it's a little big due to vastness, the flatness, and the lack of land features (but if you can do AFRIKA CORPS for WWII (you will do that for CM, right BTS?), then I really don't see why not there too).

Just take a look at the list from Steel Panthers II (hmm, what self-respecting tactical wargamer doesn't have SP2? ), you can see lots of possibilities. Anyway, it's definitely gonna be a cool year as more CM stuff comes out.

JagdPanzer

PS. anybody who wouldn't like using an artillary-launched NUKE? ...hehheheheh....

[This message has been edited by JAGDPANZER (edited 08-19-2000).]

[PzKpfw 1]

I wouldn't count on to many T-80 scrap heaps, or use the demise of T-72 exports in the Gulf as a measuring stick to Soviet service tanks.

The T-64 was more then a match for the M60's & original M1's 105mm APFSDS ammo that was available to US tanks, in fact recent anylss show the T-64 was immune as were Soviet T-72s & T-80's on the frontal arc to 105mm APFSDS at standard battle ranges.

The 120mm upgunning on the Abrams was a step forward but in 1985 the Soviets introduced KONTAKT-5 ERA which gave protection vs both HEAT & APFSDS. An example of the protection was the 1995 German live fire tests & the 1996 US live fire tests vs T-72s fitted with KONTAKT-5, the 120mm M829 APFSDS rounds failed vs the frontal arc.

I think CM could handle modeling 70-83 with no problem and could just see a Fulda operation . NATO advantages were in FCS & TIS, night engagements definatly favored NATO.

Regards, John Waters

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"Go for the eyes Boo, go for the eyed!!".

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 08-19-2000).]

[Goofy]

Cuchulainn said..Some of the 1982 Falkands/Malvinas War assaults would also be possible. Boy, does this give me ideas! It could be done with what we already have, just have to shuffle things around a bit, hmmmm. Need to go look at the avaliable equipment again.

[Splinty]

As a modern Army vet I would love a modern day version of CM,the central Europe maps wouldn't have to be much different than they are now,basically just upgrade the building textures and maybe add autobahns. You'de need bigger maps though,even with the close terrain in Germany (I was stationed there for 7 out of 12 years on AD)the hilltop to hilltop firing ranges for tanks and ATGMs would be at least double that of WW2 era weapons.Still to have troops piling out of Bradleys and BMP3s and assaulting enemy strongpoints...drool,drool

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Nicht Schiessen!!

[Airborne]

I would love to see the modern stuff in this format, too. However, as stated the ranges would much greater than WWII. Esp. ATGMs --the TOW could reach out beyond 3700 meters and the helicopter versions of the Hellfire even further.. Still, it would be great..

Of course, there is TAC Ops..

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Land Soft--Kill Quiet

[Mark IV]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

The T-64 was more then a match for the M60's & original M1's 105mm APFSDS ammo that was available to US tanks, in fact recent anylss show the T-64 was immune as were Soviet T-72s & T-80's on the frontal arc to 105mm APFSDS at standard battle ranges...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

John: Where can I find that test? I would be grateful if you could point me toward sources on recent armor version testing, especially of the T60+ series of Soviet armor and guns. Sounds fascinating!

[This message has been edited by Mark IV (edited 08-19-2000).]

[Emos]

Thanks for the recent insights on Soviet armor PzKpfw 1. I had forgotten about the early versions of the M1 and the Soviet "Reactive" armor would add more protection against HEAT projectiles and missiles.

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"You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"

--Dr. Strangelove--

[Guest Mirage2k]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Thanks for the recent insights on Soviet armor PzKpfw 1. I had forgotten about the early versions of the M1 and the Soviet "Reactive" armor would add more protection against HEAT projectiles and missiles. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Reactive armor has always kind of confused me. Wouldn't it afford protection for only one hit? Is it replaced after a battle?

-Andrew

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Throw me a frickin' smiley, people!

Your one-stop-shop for gaming news is www.SiegersPost.com ! Hit it!

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV:

John: Where can I find that test? I would be grateful if you could point me toward sources on recent armor version testing, especially of the T60+ series of Soviet armor and guns. Sounds fascinating!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The data was gathered by determining the T-64, T-72, T-80 RHA and then the actual 105mm APFDS penetration, and CW articles etc concerning the 105mm.

The later ERA detail history is a bt easier to track Ie:

The German test or 1st remarks on the effectiveness of KONTAKT-5 appeared in Janes in 1995. The Germans bacicly stated that Russian tanks fitted with K-5 were invulnerable to all current APFSDS ammunition.

Most ppl in the Defence community were very skeptical about this as it was a Russian design therefor it couldn't be good etc,the skepticsm would change in 1996.

US Live Fire test data appeared in Janes in 1996, to this date no further data has been released other then the M829 failed vs K-5.

I do not remember the Janes issues concerning this and all my articles are still in packing hiatus. Will dig them out L8r & see what I can get you. If you E-mail me I can put you in touch with someone who can tell you more about the 105mm APFSDS vs T-64 etc.

Regards, John Waters

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"Make way evil, I'm armed to the teeth and packing a hamster!"

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 08-19-2000).]

[Cuchulainn]

Another thought of a conflict in the same era.

What were the battles like in the Spanish Civil War?

I confess that my knowledge here is very sparse indeed!

[kipanderson]

Hi,

I also subscribe to both the monthly and weekly Jane's magazines and would like to reinforce what John says. It was mentioned again just recently that "same generation" Russian tanks are immune to all NATO 120mm ammunition. The armour John refers to is the second generation ERA. They have now just introduced the third generation ERA that is also immune to tandem HEAT rounds. It achieves this by the not very surprising means of having "tandem" ERA. There is also the Arena active defence system that destroys incoming ATGM some 30m from the tank. It has been demonstrated to the Germans and others and works. If you take equipment that is mature and available for export, rather than fielded in large quantities by the Russians themselves,its a far more even contest than is generally believed. India may be the first to field Arena in large quantities.

Yes, I would love a Soviet/NATO CM. An OPFOR CM would be even better.As I say if you take mature ,off the shelf Russian equipment, even if it has not been sold in large numbers, it is a very even contest. http://www.milparade.com

Military Parade is the Russian Jane's. $29 for six years back issues, stunning value.

All the best,

Kip.

[Banshee]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mirage2k:

Reactive armor has always kind of confused me. Wouldn't it afford protection for only one hit? Is it replaced after a battle?

-Andrew

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes only one hit, but there is many "blocks" of reactive armor covering a tank, so the chance of hitting the exact same spot is less likely. Also protecting from one hit it no small thing.

As for the original topic, I think after BTS finishes CM2-CM4 the computing power to the general public would be such that the larger ranges and maps could be handled much better for such a modern engagement.

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Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki

[dNorwood]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cuchulainn:

Another thought of a conflict in the same era.

What were the battles like in the Spanish Civil War?

I confess that my knowledge here is very sparse indeed!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or (a bit silly maybe) - suppose Patton (as quoted in the movie) got his way ans the US and Russia went to war immediately after defeating Germany.

[Gen. Sosaboski]

Yes, but for modern warfare you would have to model the A-10 as a separate Fighter-bomber (20mm generic fire just doesn't cut it instead of 30mm GAU-8A fire for me )

Korea and Vietnam are two games I would LOVE to see come out. I've heard about the CC3 Vietnam mod and that might make me go hunting for the game. Anyone heard of a CC2 'Nam mod? I've heard of a 1940 mod, an upcoming modern mod, and WWI, but not Korea or 'Nam. I'd love to have PJs in my command with covering A-1Es!

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kipanderson:

Hi,

They have now just introduced the third generation ERA that is also immune to tandem HEAT rounds. It achieves this by the not very surprising means of having "tandem" ERA.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

KAKTUS is the new ERA from NII Stali it is reportedly designed to defeat tandem warheads, EFPs, top attack ATGMs as well as adding more protection vs improved APFSDS rounds. Where did you see it had been released Kip? I have seen no reports it has been shown this year yet, at any of the Russian arms shows.

Speaking of ARENA, it was the 2nd development after the original SHTORA 1 EOCM DAS had shown the possibilies. The Russians have realy pushred the edge on armor survivabilty improvements, that are cost effective to compared to an new MBT.

All this discussion reminds me of discussions we had on Tanker's in the old day's .

Regards, John Waters

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"Go for the eyes Boo,go for the eyes!!".

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 08-19-2000).]

[kipanderson]

John,hi,

March-April 1999 issue of Military Parade, article called "Projectile or Armor:Which is the Stronger?".

Says everything you do about the third generation ERA. Proof against tandem HEAT rounds such as TOW2A and HOT-2T, latest APFSDS long rod rounds such as M829A2 and DM43A1 and "technical problems pertaining to the protection against particular weapons attacking the tank from the top are also resolved."

All the best,

Kip.

PS. First shown, or fitted, to a T90 at Abu Dhabi'99. Somewhere else in MP they explain it is done by having "tandem" ERA, as one would expect.

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kipanderson:

PS. First shown, or fitted, to a T90 at Abu Dhabi'99. Somewhere else in MP they explain it is done by having "tandem" ERA, as one would expect.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahh I hadn't heard the Abu-Dabi show had taken place, thought it was later this year .

Regards, John Waters

"Go for the eyes Boo, go for the eyes!!".

[JAGDPANZER]

This is very exciting talk indeed, I had no idea that Russian ERA has improved this much to defeat HEAT and Sabots. I've always enjoyed the "punch and counter punch" arms race involving Pact/NATO armors. It would be nice to model not only T80/90 or M1A1, but also Challenger, Leopard II, Leclarc, Merkava, or even the little Swedish S tank. You know this will really show off the low sillouette nature of the S tank, and lots of hulldown terrain for that tank at almost anywhere.