US Half-Track and MG-42 Penetration

[user1000]

 

I didn't know this but my armor booklet says the US half-track has 12mm of frontal armor, it also says the mg-42 or 34 can only penetrate 8mm of armor at a 30 degree angle at 100meters.

Is it possible that a US half-track could with-stand the frontal hits at that range since it has 12mm of front armor?

Is this portrayed in the game correctly? At 500 meters would they just bounce off the front?

 

Edited March 13, 2016 by user1000

[Thewood1]

Why don't you test it yourself?

[RockinHarry]

You need to elaborate any such testing. The normal (lMG/HMG) MG34/42 just have the heavy 7.92mm ball ammo which shouldn´t do much damage to any armored vehicle (beside bits of spalling and splintering). The 7.92mm armor piercing variant (smk) is only available from halftracks, dumps and MG pillboxes (7.92mm AP ingame) and can be distributed only to HMG´s, but not infantry or lMG teams (usually by default german HMG´s would have at least 1-2 belts of AP ammo at hand and even normal infantry squads with their lMG would have a belt, something not reflected in the game).

The AP ammo should penetrate any light armor (8-15mm) from ranges within 300m. Probably the same for US AP bullets on german light armor.

According to a SS Panzergrenadier guy...

...german halftracks weren´t quite that "bullet proof", but he lacks giving info about particular ammo used (heavy bullet or AP), range and engagement angles, so this report isn´t that useful for proper evaluation.

[RockinHarry]

Resurrection time.

I´d just recently figured that 7.92mm AP carried by some german 251 can penetrate similarly armored vehicles, like M5 HT, CW carriers and the like frontally at ranges up to 300m or maybe somewhat more. But to achieve this one needs to directly target the enemy vehicles. An armored covered arc given to a 251 will be ignored, as would be any other unit distributed with the 7.92mm AP (through acquire). It´s a pity the TacAI routines do not consider this. Either the game considers mentioned lightly armored vehicles not armored enough, or the 7.92mm AP not beeing sufficiently effective.

( 7.92mm AP = 7.92mm SmK (pointed with hardened steel core), rated at penetrating 12mm steel armor at V0 785 m/s )

Edited February 15, 2019 by RockinHarry

[General Liederkranz]

On 3/13/2016 at 8:28 AM, RockinHarry said:

can be distributed only to HMG´s, but not infantry or lMG teams

Are you sure about this? I seem to recall distributing AP ammo to squad LMGs and shooting at Soviet armored cars with it (this was in CMRT, of course, not CMBN).

[RockinHarry]

7 hours ago, General Liederkranz said:

Are you sure about this? I seem to recall distributing AP ammo to squad LMGs and shooting at Soviet armored cars with it (this was in CMRT, of course, not CMBN).

that statement I made in 2016. Off course it works, though can´t remember if I hadn´t figured it out that time yet. See my latests post above and my reference is towards armored covered arc not working for units carrying 7.92mm AP. Only direct targeting (T key) works and killing/damaging lightly armored vehicles at close ranges  (upto maybe 300-500m) with lMG and HMG is possible for sure.

[Bulletpoint]

On 2/16/2019 at 12:28 AM, RockinHarry said:

It´s a pity the TacAI routines do not consider this. Either the game considers mentioned lightly armored vehicles not armored enough, or the 7.92mm AP not beeing sufficiently effective.

It's because the TacAI thinks MG ammo won't penetrate. But it can, in some situations.

Meanwhile, the US 50cal will happily open fire against most German tanks, at long range, achieving nothing apart from getting HE in return...

[RockinHarry]

2 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

It's because the TacAI thinks MG ammo won't penetrate. But it can, in some situations.

Meanwhile, the US 50cal will happily open fire against most German tanks, at long range, achieving nothing apart from getting HE in return...

I guess there´s a calibre dependence at which the game sticks to (not thoroughly tested) with regard to armored CA. Likely Starts at 12+ mm and a certain minimum effective range then. Will have a closer look at it in the future.

[Erwin]

Isn't it something like the 50 cal can degrade a tank's optics etc?   So, the AI may consider it worth shooting at a tank with a 50 cal.

[RockinHarry]

7 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Isn't it something like the 50 cal can degrade a tank's optics etc?   So, the AI may consider it worth shooting at a tank with a 50 cal.

I think everything you´d throw at an AFV can damage its (unarmored) sub systems like optics, antenna, tyres ect. I´ve also seen it from small arms fire in the 7.x mm range, but to me personally it remains more interesting ATM what the AI thinks of using small arms AP (armor piercing) for seeking actual armor penetration and thus cause internal damage. Haven´t looked at other nations OOB yet, but do we have small arms AP loadouts for them too? 

[Bulletpoint]

4 hours ago, Erwin said:

Isn't it something like the 50 cal can degrade a tank's optics etc?   So, the AI may consider it worth shooting at a tank with a 50 cal.

It wouldn't make sense to throw away a .50 team to have a small chance of scratching a tank's optics.

Also, you could say the same about any other weapon. A rifle firing at a vision block could probably scratch it too, but I don't think anyone would try.

[Erwin]

I was pointing out a possible limitation of the AI.  Agreed in RL, doesn't make sense.

[Bulletpoint]

On 2/19/2019 at 3:52 AM, Erwin said:

I was pointing out a possible limitation of the AI.  Agreed in RL, doesn't make sense.

Right, got you.

I think it's not a matter of the AI "deciding" whether it can cause damage or not. I think it operates from a checklist of targets it will or won't shoot at. Somebody put a checkmark next to "suitable target: armour" for the 50 cal. If I'm correct, probably that checkmark should be removed.

A 60mm mortar will also degrade tank optics (and tracks) with repeated hits. But you won't see 60mm mortars taking shots at tanks (maybe if they are unbuttoned, can't remember).

[RockinHarry]

1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

I think it's not a matter of the AI "deciding" whether it can cause damage or not. I think it operates from a checklist of targets it will or won't shoot at. Somebody put a checkmark next to "suitable target: armour" for the 50 cal. If I'm correct, probably that checkmark should be removed.

From my recent experience that could well be the way it´s handled in the game. I´ve that particular problem with Panzergrenadier infantry which carry quite a good amount of 7,92mm AP, both in the HT´s and HMG units. Since every infantry unit (incl. Snipers, ect.) are able to obtain that 7.92mm AP from the HT (and maybe ammo sharing) through acquire, this ammo is usable for these as well. Yet the armor CA works for none of them, which is quite a pity.