Bulletpoint Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) While playtesting my scenario myself, I finally found out why it has caused so much trouble for my testers. The issue is that there's an enemy infantry gun behind a low wall. It's visible but the crew ducks down behind the wall when they take fire. This causes all my machineguns to keep firing at the gun, ignoring any other targeting orders they have. So, I cannot achieve fire superiority, because this single infantry gun acts like a huge magnet attracting all my firepower, and it stays alive for a HUGE amount of time thanks to the wall. The crew stays behind it in safety, and the gun keeps drawing the fire. The more fire they get, the more they duck, and the more invulnerable they become. The problem is the priorities of the TacAI. It sees the gun as an important threat, so overrides my general suppression fire orders. To some extent this makes sense, but it would be enough to have one or two MGs suppressing it. In effect, this makes the enemy position much stronger than it would have been otherwise. Also, the problem is that the machineguns try to hit the infantry gun itself, even though they can never destroy it. If the machinegunners only aimed for the crew when they pop up, they would be taken out in short order. Has this been changed with recent engine versions? I'm still on v.2.12. Maybe you dont have this issue with the new engines. Edited August 25, 2015 by Bulletpoint 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 This seems like a similar issue that some tanks have with the MG bunkers. They will fire at bunkers non stop even though all inhabitants in it may be dead or completely routed. Tanks will waste valuable HE turn after turn until the bunker is registered as abandoned or knocked out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted August 25, 2015 Author Share Posted August 25, 2015 At least with the bunker, the tank has a good chance of destroying the target. In my example, all the guns will just hammer away at a brick wall till they run out of ammo. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted August 25, 2015 Author Share Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) Desired TacAI: Unit prioritises shooting at infantry gun over other units, unless given a specific target order. Maybe make it dependant on C2, experience, leadership, and motivation if units will obey direct orders or not. Edited August 25, 2015 by Bulletpoint 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 This seems like a similar issue that some tanks have with the MG bunkers. They will fire at bunkers non stop even though all inhabitants in it may be dead or completely routed. Tanks will waste valuable HE turn after turn until the bunker is registered as abandoned or knocked out. That´s true. Obviously cause they´re treated as vehicles to the enemy TacAI. Also the AIP knows exactly, when a pillbox is actually occupied or not, once it´s spotted. There´s no "silent" movement with friendly infantry into the pillbox, even when hidden behind the pillbox (rear side) and not spotted. Once the first soldier makes it into the pillbox....Wham!...the pillbox becomes priority target for any enemy unit in sight. Well "silent" ain´t possible anyway due to the highly visible mounting and dismounting process. If you get any survivors back out of the concrete trap again, it gets ignored instantly, while the survivors get mowed down nicely, when rushing the neighborhood due to the "like from a vehicle" dismounting process. No fun... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Desired TacAI: Unit prioritises shooting at infantry gun over other units, unless given a specific target order. Maybe make it dependant on C2, experience, leadership, and motivation if units will obey direct orders or not. The last part is already true to an extent, but perhaps not as true as you'd like or even as true as it should be... Fanatic troops will obey their explicit Target orders no matter (pretty much) what. It's a significant factor to bear in mind if you have such units in your mix. Lower levels (lower than Fanatic) of motivation are progressively less determined to follow their orders. Where that line gets drawn for specific threats is a very debateable subject, I reckon. It certainly sounds to me like some sort of tweaking might be beneficial in this case. Hopefully you have a mortar that can be tasked with taking out the gun so the MGs can move on to more productive targets. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 (edited) So, I experienced this, and I'm pretty sure I know exactly the situation Bulletpoint is talking about, but it didn't really worry me. Yes, the MG will fire itself dry if you do nothing else, but if you do nothing else you're totes doin' it 'rong. In my experience the MG fire kept the iG crew suppressed (and occasionally inflicted a casualty), which meant that they never got a shot away. With that primary death killer effectively M-killed I was able (with some other suppression in other areas) to maneuver across the open field until some riflemen were able to get close enough to stab the gun crew in their wriggly bits. Fire and maneuver! It worked! Yay! Please don't nerf cover so that fire alone, without maneuver, is sufficient to resolve problems. If what you're doing isn't working, do something else instead. Edited August 26, 2015 by JonS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted August 26, 2015 Author Share Posted August 26, 2015 So, I experienced this, and I'm pretty sure I know exactly the situation Bulletpoint is talking about, but it didn't really worry me. Yes, the MG will fire itself dry if you do nothing else, but if you do nothing else you're totes doin' it 'rong. In my experience the MG fire kept the iG crew suppressed (and occasionally inflicted a casualty), which meant that they never got a shot away. With that primary death killer effectively M-killed I was able (with some other suppression in other areas) to maneuver across the open field until some riflemen were able to get close enough to stab the gun crew in their wriggly bits. Fire and maneuver! It worked! Yay! Please don't nerf cover so that fire alone, without maneuver, is sufficient to resolve problems. If what you're doing isn't working, do something else instead. It's of course a good idea to keep that infantry gun suppressed and out of the fight. But in this case, it means _all_ the US machineguns get soaked up and unable to suppress any of the other potential positions, and since I set this mission up with armoured infantry, without BARs, this means most of their firepower is negated. I know in real life, soldiers don't always follow orders, but in this case, I have a +2 leadership platoon leader breathing down their neck, he should be able to slap the crews and make them follow orders. I might try giving the machineguns a bit of motivation bonus to see if that helps with being able to choose manual targets. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weta_nz Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 I'm not sure if this will work but have you tried a target arc command to stop them firing at the IG? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 I'm not sure if this will work but have you tried a target arc command to stop them firing at the IG? A good suggestion to try. Troops are, IME, more reluctant to break a TA restriction than to ignore an explicit Target order. It's not as much help if the other suppression required is "speculative", rather than at Spotted targets though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 (edited) A good suggestion to try. Troops are, IME, more reluctant to break a TA restriction than to ignore an explicit Target order. It's not as much help if the other suppression required is "speculative", rather than at Spotted targets though. Won't solve the problem, as I want the machineguns to do what they are good for - actively suppressing enemy positions. My problem is not really my own game. I'm the designer of this scenario, and I want it to work well for the players. Edited August 27, 2015 by Bulletpoint 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Give the lads a mortar or two and be done with it.Or as Jons said, its fine, sounds like a good challenge for someone that knows how to play.The other suggestions do not sound like they will help much . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 Give the lads a mortar or two and be done with it. Or as Jons said, its fine, sounds like a good challenge for someone that knows how to play. The other suggestions do not sound like they will help much . They already have a mortar. It's not impossible to win the mission. I'm just frustrated that it has to be this way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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