Finding the enemy with a strict ROE

[AttorneyAtWar]

In many of the NATO and some US missions it advises you to not fire on buildings until you have identified enemies in them in case of civilian casualties. My problem is, how do I identify enemy's in these buildings if I can't fire on them, sending scouts in close would be suicide because of the ambush risk and most enemy units are hiding so you can't spot them normally in the building.

Tips, tricks, thoughts?

Thanks.

[Erwin]

It's a tricky problem.

Sometimes you just have to have observers sit and watch for several turns.

Most times, if you were a real CO concerned about your men, you'd probably find an excuse to recon by fire. "Hey, doesn't that shadow look like a dude with a rifle!"

[cool breeze]

And from a gamey perspective, I think the game scores that stuff with preserve objectives, and it takes a ton of bullets to damage a building enough that it is not preserved.

[Sergei]

Some light caliber fire doesn't count as long as you don't knock walls down so you can still lay some suppressive fire with a SAW or a carbine team (note that already .50 HMG can easily damage buildings with sustained fire) while your scouts move in. Keep moving and always have enough guns ready to open fire in any direction at any moment.

[Erwin]

"it takes a ton of bullets to damage a building enough that it is not preserved."

I did a test once and IIRC it took a couple minutes of 50 cal to affect a building points-wise, and maybe 40 seconds for a Bradley main gun. Was a long time ago, however...

[agusto]

Actually it is even safe to a few fire 20 to 30mm HE rounds into buildings without damaging them (well, at least in game terms). Rifle grenades, Panzerfausts (but not ATGMs!), small calibre artillery and/or air burst artillery shells also only seem to significantly damage the buildings in CMSF if you use them excessively. Rifle fire (5.56, 7,62 and the like) doesnt seem to cause damage at all.

[sburke]

This is one of those items in CMSF that has spurred me to start reading everything I can on Iraq. Take this all with a grain of salt as I am a late comer to beta testing, but I am under the distinct impression that CMSF was developed with a LOT of input from folks who were there. This isn't just a theoretical gamey idea. This is an attempt to render in game the ROE that folks fought under. It is hard to render as there are no civilians depicted in CM. The idea as I understand it is to depict the inability to use heavy weapons in civilian areas negating some of the firepower advantages the US had.

We can't totally simulate it in the examples of not being able to fire unless fired upon, the TAC AI would preclude that as well as FOW as there are no noncombatants in CM. You have to try and visualize at that point what the conditions CM is trying to reflect. I seriously doubt BF will ever include civilians in the game environment.

I realize none of that answers your specific question. Just reacting to the question as that aspect of CMSF had a pretty strong impression on me trying to understand it.

[agusto]

The idea as I understand it is to depict the inability to use heavy weapons in civilian areas negating some of the firepower advantages the US had.

It works well if that is the intended goal. I am that kinda of player that, if my infantry makes contact with an enemy in a building or any other kind of fortified position, pulls back the boots on the ground and sends in the 70-ton MBTs to blast the building plus the whole surrounding area (if you meet one enemy suqad, there are often some of their buddys nearby) into tiny little pieces, preferingly from 2 kilometeres away. I have completely obliterated whole villages in the CMSF Marines campaign where you get a LOT of firepower and absolutely no ROE restrictions. During one mission IIRC i didnt even reach any of the touch objectives, i just sat there and had my tanks, my 40mm automatic grenade launchers, my .50 cal HMGS, my ATGMs, my artillery and aircraft pound the enemy positions for almost an hour until the Syrians just gave up. I completely used up almost the whole battalions ammunation supply that day , propably like 5 to 10 tons of ammo. Why risk the lives of my Marines in a fierce CQB if i can accomplish the mission without doing so? Ammo is expendable, my men are not. I know, i know, destroying the country wont win any hearts and minds, but that isnt what CM is about, isnt it? Anyways, the ROE in the NATO campaign made some of the missions noteably more challenging than they would have been without those restrictions.

[A Canadian Cat]

I am that kinda of player that, if my infantry makes contact with an enemy in a building or any other kind of fortified position, pulls back the boots on the ground and sends in the 70-ton MBTs to blast the building plus the whole surrounding area (if you meet one enemy suqad, there are often some of their buddys nearby) into tiny little pieces, preferingly from 2 kilometeres away.

Well then, I am so glad you and your men are not trying to root out insurgents from my neighbourhood then

[agusto]

There are armed insurgents in your neigbourhood? Damn, Canada must have changed a lot since my last visit .

[agusto]

edit: accidential posting