Guest Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 The CM strategic AI is designed specifically to be controlled by scenario designers. That's NOT non-existent AI. It's AI with a very specific purpose, it works quite well, and it's getting better as we add more features like triggers. Could it be more reactive? Yes. But does it meet its rather difficult stated goal? I'd say it comes very close. The TacAI is also excellent in my opinion, for a system that provides control to upwards of several thousand individually acting soldiers in a 3D combat environment in realtime. The only thing that is in the same league is recent ArmA titles, and I think we've all seen the ArmA AI do sub-optimal things too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelican Pal Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 The CM strategic AI is designed specifically to be controlled by scenario designers. That's NOT non-existent AI. It's AI with a very specific purpose, it works quite well, and it's getting better as we add more features like triggers. Could it be more reactive? Yes. But does it meet its rather difficult stated goal? I'd say it comes very close. I've designed, but not released, quite a few scenarios right now. I'm familiar with the stratAI. Which, as you said, is a scenario designer thing. It isn't independently intelligent. Which is more of my point. Edit: I agree that Arma AI is also passable. it doesn't mean that it is bad, just that it isn't at human levels and against a human opponent you will almost certainly need to design in some balance that wouldn't normally be required against a human. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I've designed, but not released, quite a few scenarios right now. I'm familiar with the stratAI. Which, as you said, is a scenario designer thing. It isn't independently intelligent. Which is more of my point. As a scenario designer, would you rather have the AI a) do what you want your scenario to do, or do whatever it feels like and hope that your scenario isn't subverted in the process? It's simple when it's a straightforward defense or meeting engagement, but consider a complex battle with multiple avenues of attack and defense. The chances that a fully independent AI will do what the designer intends are next to nil. So... there's a balance to how much autonomy can be allowed the strategic AI when it's supposed to do what scenario designers tell it. Like I said, I think we'd like to allow more, but it's certainly a more complicated question than "why don't we add more independent intelligence?" Edit: I agree that Arma AI is also passable. it doesn't mean that it is bad, just that it isn't at human levels and against a human opponent you will almost certainly need to design in some balance that wouldn't normally be required against a human. Agreed. Tactical AI that can run thousands of individuals in realtime is as rare as hen's teeth. I've designed and built a couple of those systems myself over the years. CM's is one of the best I've seen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talespin Jim Posted August 18, 2014 Author Share Posted August 18, 2014 That brings up something I was wondering about. When I do a quick battle against the AI, is there some pre-programmed AI for the quick battle or is the AI left entirely to its own to figure out a battle plan? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 QB maps all have AI plans, however rudimentary they necessarily must be. You can thank Mark Ezra for all the headaches and hard work he had to endure to make the maps and the plans for all the CM QB maps. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talespin Jim Posted August 18, 2014 Author Share Posted August 18, 2014 Thanks Mark Ezra. That is truly a big feat. I've been thinking about how redundant it must have been for someone to create all of those different maps, for each terrain type and map size and that's what got me to wondering if someone had to set up a strategy for each map and various force types for both sides and maybe varying force selections or different nation's armies. I think I would have had to kill myself before I finished. I'm sure there are a lot of those monumental tasks in this game that requires a novel strain of heroism to complete. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelican Pal Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 As a scenario designer, would you rather have the AI a) do what you want your scenario to do, or do whatever it feels like and hope that your scenario isn't subverted in the process? I totally agree that the scripted start AI is probay the best thing for a designer. I'm not asking for anything else. However, I wouldn't describe the AI in the same terms that I might describe a independent AI. It is very much scripted and how good the strategic AI is will be super dependent on how good the scenario designer is. Largely I was just commenting on Womble's characterization of the strategic AI as independently intelligent. It's not and requires a good hand from the designer to get the AI into a place where the tactical AI can do some damage. Overall I would describe the AI in CM as pretty solid. However, I tend to describe AI in terms of how it stacks up to a player. Which is why I sound pretty harsh. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 To semi quote a Capitol one credit card commercial MarkEzra is genius! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Y6QcxhiD8 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Yes, MarkEzra has done an incredible amount of work on the QB maps. His work with the maps, the setup zones, and, most importantly, the AI plans, is mind-boggling. In the vein of AI, upstream it was written, "I've designed, but not released, quite a few scenarios right now. I'm familiar with the stratAI. Which, as you said, is a scenario designer thing. It isn't independently intelligent. Which is more of my point." (My bold, for emphasis.) Show me a SINGLE "independently intelligent" AI. Anywhere. For any purpose. IT DOESN'T EXIST. All that exists are BEHAVIORS based on INPUT. They can be complex, but are not intelligent. They can be trained, but are not intelligent. Holding BFC to a standard that NO ONE has met is ludicrous. The strat AI does a very good job. It needs skilled designers to maximize its benefits. With triggers, it has reached a nice level of performance. Expanding on triggers would, I think, help improve it. The TacAI is outstanding. Seriously, and literally. It stands out from all others in this genre. Hell, when I'd play ASL solo, I wouldn't do as good a job with the enemy as the TacAI does. Sure, it fails on occasion. However, that can add to the simulation. The tank that stops...just short of cover...and then reverses and dies, can make the omniscient player groan in frustration. How many real-life tank drivers, choking on dust, gun fumes, bullets rattling off the hull, semi-blind due to periscopes and undulating terrain, hearing and seeing other tanks explode, would sometimes stop and reverse just short of cover? Yeah. Chaos and unpredictability. Sweet. Can it be better? Sure. Everything can be improved. Is it bad, poor, or otherwise falling short? Not really. StratAI? Again, that's for the designer. That's YOU! I've got shelves full of games. Not as many as some (you know who ). There are NONE which allow me to design a battle with the ease of CM. If I don't like what MarkEzra did with the defending AI in Deep_Woods_Lrg_376b, well, I can pop it into the editor and adjust it. Presto magicko, the StratAI just improved. "independently intelligent" is a flawed basis upon which to measure CM's AI. The trigger tools are a very recent innovation. I'm sure the skills of those who use them will improve. I'm sure the tools will also improve. Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talespin Jim Posted August 20, 2014 Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 I just wish state of the art was better than it is. I mean, according to 2001 A Space Odyssey, we were supposed to achieve self aware AI 13 years ago. Where did we go wrong? Oh, I know, it was those stupid kids and their cursed rap music. They threw the whole culture out of kilter. I can hear the first self aware computer now, "Ptew, ptew ptew ptew... My name's Hal and I'm your pal, got a question? I'll show you how. Ptew ptew ptew Will I sleep? Will I bleep? Am I a creep? You're in deep..." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelican Pal Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 I can show you a lot, but most of this is down to semantics now. I would call the AI in the total war games, paradox games, and many others as "independently intelligent". This is, generally speaking, hard coded AI that an individual user doesn't have to mess with. My definition is pretty much based on who programs the AI. The tactical AI is good. It could be better, and I will not call it excellent because I judge AI based on how a player handles it. Not relative to other AI. There *are* very few ai's that are comparable to the CM AI. It is very impressive. We have been arguing semantics this whole thread. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bergerbitz Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Oh my gentle, German Jesus -- entire countries are governed by semantics. It's like energy, as it's neither created nor destroyed. It just is. Or maybe it's more like a sport...? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hister Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Gotta admire Pelican for having the time and energy to engage in heated debates across the board these days. Vacation time? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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