Grog-nerds

[Kevin Peltz]

I don't mean to make a big deal of this, but there have been a number of not uninteresting discussions re so-called "grognards" who like to blast everything in sight. I think the best way to deal with the archtype is to completely ignore them. I was pondering the glow-on some of them would be getting just by the mention of them in the forum. It's like the school ground bully thing- if you don't give them the attention they crave, most of the time they will go away. I don't believe in the term anyway- the only people who deserve to be called grognards (in the sense of having the expertise and knowledge to analyze a wargame), are the ones who have been at the sharp end for real. The rest of us are just arm-chair wannabe generals, no matter how long we have been doing this stuff.

[Guest Big Time Software]

In general I agree. However, some of these blowhards need to be counter attacked, FACTUALLY, because they know nothing and can confuse newbies with what is fact and fiction. I saw one self proclaimed Grognard post something, in defense of a design flaw in another game, that he thought bazookas were wireguided rocket launchers. Uhmmmmmm... we think this need to be tackled in the way it was presented. Honest, naive question, no problem. But as part of a "I know I am right because of x, y, and z" discussion I think the person needs to be knocked down a couple of pegs. Obviously if it is just abuse it should be ignored. As you say, those types hate it when that happens

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 09-18-99).]

[Guest Mikeman]

I used to think of myself as somewhat of

a grognard, that is until I discovered this

website and found out I've barely scratched

the surface of "grognardism". Being a newbie

grognard, I would sure like to know about it

if some 'know it all' pseudo-grog posts some

incorrect information on this board. Bazooka

rounds were small rockets weren't they? Just

not wire guided. Mikeman out.

[Fionn]

Mikeman,

Don't worry, there's enough real grognards hanging around here to spot any "wannabes" instantly.

I've had more than my fair share of run-ins with these guys on other boards so I'm going to keep an eye open for them anyway .

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Guest Lokesa]

As the student I dont have to be right, which is nice

Appreciate the combined knowledge and experience on this board, thanks all.

[Ken Talley]

Here is an excellent site on the panzerfaust, panzerschreck, and German MG's. The panzerschreck is very similiar to a bazooka.

http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust.htm

PS: This site has really expanded since I last looked at it. It now has a section on the American bazooka and many more German weapons as well.

Ken

[This message has been edited by Ken Talley (edited 09-18-99).]

[Guest Lokesa]

I'll second the panzerfaust page as being a great site. Kudo's to the Hofbauer.

[Doug Beman]

I consider myself an EXPERT grognard. There is nothing about warfare that I do not know. And do you want to know the source of my confidence? It's quite simple: "because I said so."

I am, of course, just 'ing!

DjB

ps what a lovely weekend we're having. Too bad we had to pay for it by putting up with H. Floyd.

[Kevin Peltz]

"Because I Said So." I think my wife read that same book...

[Herr Oberst2]

Speaking of wives, get this... a wife who contributes to my miserable attempts at "grogging".

For my birthday this past Friday, among other things, she bought me "Panzer Truppen", Vols 1 & 2. Now is THAT a cool wife or what?

[Guest Big Time Software]

Oh, I can beat that hands down...

How about a wife that buys me cool books like Ian Hogg's German Artillery PLUS a Sturmgewehr 44 dummy gun! Oh, and a M29c Weasel too And the big one you should all be thanking her for....

letting me work for the last 2 years, without earning a dime, so I could help Charles make CM

Steve

P.S. If CM doesn't do well I will have a LOT of explaining to do!

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 09-18-99).]

[Rhet]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>'Grognard' is also slang for someone who likes playing wargames<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This quote came from another web site which I will refrain from mentioning.

By this definition aren't we all Grognards? If you only play FPS games then go away!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>..."grognards" who like to blast everything in sight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kevin, I just tend to think of these pompus people as rather poor gamers (they usually are and they are usually very poor loosers) and I agree with Steve, if they are wrong, pointing it out is important so that others do not get confused. If they turn nasty then like you say just ignore them. A real grognard is interested in learning information that will help them play better.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Don't worry, there's enough real grognards hanging around here to spot any "wannabes" instantly.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yup, and thank God for that!

Finally, a few funny tests (1):

You might be a grognard if...

You ever enrolled in a Continuing Education writing course to improve the quality of your game reviews. (Fionn, Martin how about it? Fess up)

There was never any doubt in your mind about the answer to the question, "Do you love those games more than you love me?"

You have moved at least once because you needed more gaming room.

Cannot easily count the number of times an excuse to the Wife started with; "Well, I had no -idea- it was going to take as long as..."

You have scanned vacant football fields looking for a place to play a full game of Jutland advanced combat.. full battle. BTW, basketball courts are better

You own 50 plus games boxed or not . Some you have never played...but you never know someday maybe.

You take your wife to Aberdean Proving Grounds (to view the tanks) ,slipping into Gettysburg (because its close) all as part of your honeymoon and she loves you so much that doesn't notice and you're in Heaven by day and by night.

You have played most of your games solitare...whether of not they were/are solitare games...and sometimes you have enjoyed playing the games solitare MORE.

You own multiple copies of Panzer Blitz and Panzer Leader trying to have enough boards and counters to do those division scale battles. substitute Squad Leader or ASL here for me

1. tests courtsy of Web Grognards

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Rhet

[This message has been edited by Rhet (edited 09-19-99).]

[Guest Lokesa]

LOL, and I was happy with the occasional spanking

Uh, that was in response to Steve's post.

[This message has been edited by Lokesa (edited 09-19-99).]

[Fionn]

Lokesa:

Umm... thanks for sharing.. umm (long pause).. I think.. I hear there's some good therapists who can help you with that BTW . J/K Lokesa

Rhet:

Answers in order:

1. "Continuing Education" course? Rhet, you should know my reviews are PERFECT as they are. There is NO improving them.. Why? Cause I SAY SO ! (umm, real answer. no.. I've always been in the top centile in English.)

2. Guilty.. although my answer would be I love HER more than I love the games (although its MIGHTY close..) I DREAM more about CM than I do about her though.. Does that count?

3. Guilty.

4. VERY guilty.. Pulled 5 all-nighters last week with game and history-related work.

5. NOT guilty.

6. Umm. triple that and I'm still guilty. (and that's wargames only BTW)

7. Believe it or not but I have actually raised that trip with her as a "delayed honeymoon" trip. So far she's willing to go along.. She's heard me bable about Aberdeen for long enough that she realises its a sort of mecca I guess.

8. True (but after playing CM against Martin I think I'm going to be playing multiplayer more often).

9. Negative.. Only ever owned a couple of boardgames. It's been almost exclusively computers for me.

Gees, I wonder how she ever puts up with me after reading this . Must be cause of my awesome good looks and "chocolate salty balls"Tm .

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Guest Big Time Software]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>7. Believe it or not but I have actually raised that trip with her as a "delayed honeymoon" trip. So far she's willing to go along.. She's heard me bable about Aberdeen for long enough that she realises its a sort of mecca I guess.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you go, bring plenty of Klenex. With all the crying over the rusting, rotting, falling apart one of a kind things they have there you will need it

Hehe... didn't know you got South Park over that side of the Pond. Good for you

Steve

[Moon]

WARNING! Off-topic thread - avoid if in a hurry (like finishing the beta ) -

Guess what, we even have South Park in Germany now... and of course in German. Dammit!

Martin

[Fionn]

Yeah, I've heard that about Aberdeen. What a shame.

As an alternative I've been thinking about going to the Ardennes. One of the Panzers in the Bulge books has pictures of Panther barrels being used in farms.. When I saw them my FIRST thought was about committing a felony and how it would be possible to conceal a Panther main gun barrel in a car.. (maybe a roof-rack? )

As for South Park. You bet we do.. I even have much of the music including the immortal "Blame Canada" and "Kyle's mom is a b***h" songs

Seems to me Britain takes MUCH better care of its old vehicle museums than the US.. Damned shortsightedness.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Guest Mikeman]

Anyone know the history behind the term

'grognard'? Who invented it?

Mikeman

[Fionn]

It originally referred to the older veteran soldier in Napoleon's Armies. These were "grumblers" = "grognards".

The term was used for any veteran wargamers but eventually came to be applied to severely detail-focussed and exacting wargamers.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Harold Jones]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Seems to me Britain takes MUCH better care of its old vehicle museums than the US.. Damned shortsightedness. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't been to Aberdeen, but I have heard all the horror stories. I agree that what has happened at Aberdeen is a waste. However, not ALL US museums are this bad. I have been to the Patton museum at Ft. Knox and it is wonderful. Most of the vehicles are stored inside and many still run. In fact the museum demonstrates several vehicles every month weather permitting.

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If something cannot be fixed by hitting it or by swearing at it, it wasn't worth saving anyway.

[Los]

I have been to Aberdeen a bunch of times. They are slwoly (very slowly ) refurbishing armor (they just have so damn much of the stuff over 200 tanks!). Two interesting things they did was send both a Tiger and an 8-rad back to Germany on a ten year loan and rerfurbishing. It's no so much a tanlk museum as it is a old tank park. The small arms museum is well kept up. If you want a decent tank museum in the US go to Fort Know. Lost a cools tuff well kept in there.

Los

[Guest Big Time Software]

Los,

GREAT TO HEAR!! 'bout time those poor bastards started getting some attention. I went last about 5 years ago and there was little sign of efforts to keep them alive and well. I'm glad they are going to be (slowly) repaired. That hydrolic powered PzIV should be got to sooner rather than later. One of a kind!

Steve

[Herr Oberst2]

Fionn, I'd just mount it (the Panther barrel) to the roof of the car...

Outta be alot of clear lanes ahead of you that way...

[This message has been edited by Herr Oberst2 (edited 09-19-99).]

[Pixman]

On arguing with the self proclaimed experts (grognards) out there...

By now it is clear that I have a few opinions and am willing to share them. However, I am striving to learn from Thomas Jefferson on the matter of argument. The following is an extended quote from Jefferson's writings, edited by Saul K. Padover:

"Jefferson, like his good friend, Benjamin Franklin, did have humor and whimsy. At first meeting he seemed to be somewhat reserved, especially with strangers, but he warmed to those he came to know, sometimes even on short acquaintance. He loved conversation, but shunned argumentativeness. When opinions threatened to become heated, Jefferson, a good and courteous listener, tactfully changed the subject. Controversy, he felt was an idle exercise of the emotions; it was no road to truth or wisdom. He used to point out the inutility of argumentation by the anecdote of 'two men who sat down candidly to discuss a subject, and each converted the other.'

"Jefferson preferred to follow the rule of Benjamin Franklin: 'Never to contradict anybody.' If requested to express an opinion, Franklin, whom Jefferson called 'the most amiable of men in society,' parried it by himself asking a question or requesting information, or by subtly suggesting doubts. Avoidance of controversial conversation was, of course, in line with Jefferson's serene temperament. But there was also principle involved in this. He believed strongly that every person was entitled to his opinion, no matter how erroneous. In a letter to his grandson in 1808, President Jefferson wrote: 'When I hear another express an opinion which is not mine, I say to myself, he has a right to his opinion, as I to mine; why should I question it? His error does me no injury....If a fact be misstated, it is probable he is gratified by a belief of it....If he wants information..., I will give it in measured terms; but if he...shows a desire to dispute the fact with me, I hear him and say nothing.'

"Jefferson would not indulge in argumentation, not only because he found it personally distasteful but also because he did not think it necessary. He was convinced that truth was invincible in the long run. Misinformation or aberrant notions entertained by individuals were temporary and, in any case, not of great moment. Truth, he used to say, was in itself so powerful and eternal that nothing could resist its ultimate triumph. There was, therefore, as he put it, no need for him to 'become a Don Quixote' in private conversation to set everybody right."

Is it not amazing that Jefferson, perhaps the greatest mind in our public history, simply chose not to argue? When I first read this passage I was astounded. I had always pictured him as arguing for the cause of liberty. But, in reexamining the players of the time, it was clearly the Adams boys, Hancock, Henry and Paine that engaged in the verbal and oral wrestling matches. Guys like Jefferson and Franklin simply stated what to them was natural law. But they left it to others -- especially John Adams -- to take up the legalistic cause.

I know this is a serious off subject digression. Steve's initial response about feeling a need to set some of the wannabe grognards straight, sparked this passage in my memory. So, since you are all a slightly historical (hysterical?) bunch, I thought I would share it with you. I have long been a big time Jefferson fan.

Pixman

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The enchanter may confuse the outcome, but the effort remains sublime.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Yeah Pixman, but Jefferson never saw the Internet, where falsehoods spread as faster than the speed of light Seriously, I agree with Jefferson to a point. That point is when the other side intends on doing you harm with the "opinions" that are not grounded in either truth and/or rational thought. Truth might win out in the end, but the price of ignoring those who are out to cause harm, on purpose, can be too great. I think there are a couple tens of millions of people in Europe that would agree with this if they werenhadn't been killed by such people...

Steve