T-34/85 at 2252 meters (vs Jgdpz IV (late))

[Vanir Ausf B]

I also don't think it should be able to penetrate at that range but here I would also say more tests are needed.

22 consecutive non-penetrations aren't enough? I look forward to seeing your results

[batteran]

I disagree, given the cost difference I do not think a Conscript should be able to zero in the range that quickly at that extreme distance.

It's not a general rule, but I have an anecdote.

It take place in 1945, at the "St Nazaire pocket".

They are some Germans (about 30.000) trapped here, protecting a submarine base. They have stocked many ammo and arty rounds.

Their opponents where some US artylleries, and FFL (Free French Forces) just engaged after the debarquement.

The FFL have some captured german tanks, too. (8th cuirassier)

They where not even conscripts, more militia. The 2 sides (germans and french) essentially look at each other, waiting for the war to end, but make some limited foot operations and artillery harassement.

One of these was an attack by an captured FFL Panther at an german arty observation position (In fact, an wind mill in top of a hill...)

The Panther took fire at about 3000 meters. At the 3th shoot it hit the mill.

(The germans abandonned the position after the first shoot, so, nobody was harm ^^)

OK, it was a Mill-sized target. But not that bad, isn't?

[John Kettler]

batteran,

M10s (later M36), because of their flat gun trajectories, used to be tasked to destroy church steeples, prime locations for German FOs. Even the Sherman with 76mm gun wasn't as good at this as was the M10.

It was a new gun with a breech similar to that of the 75 mm M3 Gun. It fired the same shell as the 3-inch (76 mm) gun of the 3in Gun Motor Carriage M10 tank destroyer, but from a different case. The 76 mm was developed as a lighter gun than the "3 inch". The gun received a muzzle brake and faster rifle twist during production.

The exception to the TD superior to a tank for killing steeples rule lay in the Pershing and two Super Pershings.

Since I'm pretty sure we all know the rough size of a windmill, I invite you to consider the huge target it presents for a weapon designed to kill relatively low profile tanks head on at 2000 meters or more. If you don't, the drawing of air flow for a windmill should prove helpful.

http://www.let.rug.nl/polders/boekje/features.htm

Windmill groggery gone wild!

http://wind.nrel.gov/public/library/shepherd.pdf

Regards,

John Kettler

[batteran]

Since I'm pretty sure we all know the rough size of a windmill, I invite you to consider the huge target it presents for a weapon designed to kill relatively low profile tanks head on at 2000 meters or more. If you don't, the drawing of air flow for a windmill should prove helpful.

http://www.let.rug.nl/polders/boekje/features.htm

Windmill groggery gone wild!

http://wind.nrel.gov/public/library/shepherd.pdf

Regards,

John Kettler

In the region of my little story, it's these sort of windmill: ("smallfoot" type ^^)

The first, in particulars, was know as the "Moulin du Diable", or Satan's Mill. These is a legends about it...

It was a Mill I have seen many times when was a Child: I was born in St Nazaire...

Note that it's solid stone construction let it work from 1500s to 1800s and last to today!

Fortunately, no Panther take it for field exercice ^^

[A Canadian Cat]

Nice story. When I saw the windmill picture I thought it was going to be a reference to "tilting at windmills".

[John Kettler]

batteran,

Great pics! Is that a shell scar near the hub on the first image?

Armed with these pics, I can now see how a Panther with a militia crew managed a 3rd round hit at 3000 meters. The answers are simple. It's trivial to line up the turret on a target that big (a Sherman and change wide) and to aim at its center. Given the Panther's gun, deflection error will be small. The main difficulty in hitting a target at long range is correct range estimation. And what makes range estimation a fairly easy problem? A tall target hittable at a bunch of elevation settings!

As you can see from the TZF12a reticle, the Panther was designed to deliver HE (SprGr 42) clear out to 4000 meters. Accurately. Thus, any range setting from 3000 meters to probably 4000 meters would've yielded a hit vs the windmill.

TZF12a Reticle (TZF12a was the most common Panther gunsight)

http://www.reocities.com/Area51/Capsule/2930/pzpanther/lowres/pzpanther-charakter2.jpg

Regards,

John Kettler

[batteran]

Thanks, John

Is that a shell scar near the hub on the first image?

Hehe, good eyes, but no.

It's a cavity, that's was part of the legends of Satan's mill.

The cavity contain a Santa Maria statue.

The legends is that the mill was build on the hill in one night. Who can build a Mill in one night?

they was in these old days (1500s), where peasants was poor, and have numerous childs.

Satan make a classic deal with one poor britanny peasant with numerous child to eat and one to come: your soul in exchange of building a windmill before the end of the night.

The peasant, jobless and next to these terrible personnage, and with a bribe next to born a new child, accept the deal.

Fortunately, his wife see his sad looking, and make a plan:

The peasant stole a stone in the Satan's stack, and hide it near his house.

As Satan has almost finished his mill, the peasan wife come, and say "The Mill is not finished yet! It lack a stone! Finish your job, or leave!"

Satan, as they have big power, have seen the peasan manoeuvers, and know where the last stone was. It laugh, and just came after the last stone...

But immediately after Satan turned his back, the wife put a santa maria statue in lieu of the last stone.

So, Satan could not remove the Maria's statue to finish the Mill, and the deal was over.

As a matter of vengeance, Satan make some wind so hard that it take off the earth on the hill, but the windmill was solid and stand well ^^ (these hills today were wery rocky and poor lands)

The peasant and his wife last long and rich life.

This is one of the numerous variants of the story ^^ (this is the good end. Thay have some with bad ends... and other involved gold tooth and strange rivers paths...)

[batteran]

Internet give me a photo of the FFL Panther of this "FFI armored" with german tanks:

- PANTHER V Ausf G (renammed DAUPHINé),

The photo is legended: Capitaine Guy BESNIER on the binoculars.

On this "pocket", in this escadron were:

1 TIGRE I (nickname BRETAGNE then January 1945 nickname COLMAR. You can see it today at SAUMUR TANK MUSUEM ),

1 PANTHER V Ausf G (nicknamed DAUPHINé, the one in picture),

1 PANTHER V Ausf A (often out of ordre...),

11 PANZER IV (nickname ILE DE FRANCE, POITOU, NORMANDIE, FLANDRE, VENDEE, ANJOU, ALSACE etc...),

2 STUG III G,

1 CHASSEUR DE CHAR MARDER I on chenillette LORRAINE,

1 CHASSEUR DE CHAR JAGDPANZER IV L70,

2 HALFTRACK 350cv sdkfz 10 FAMO for trackting wreck,

1 OPELBLITZ with électrogène group,

4 OPELBLITZ and 4 civils trucks,

1 SCHWIMWAGEN,

1 HORCH, KUBELWAGEN,

4 Pak 40,

2 sdkfz 251 HANNOMAG,

1 sdkfz PANZERWERFER 42 (nickname St NAZAIRE A)

"But without ammo" ^^

3 PANHARD 178 one of them "German adaptation" PAK 50mm Pack (nickname BETOUCHKA),

1 KETTENKRAD to tract Pak 40,

Many tractions CITROEN ( Capt BESNIER's car without door very useful for quick exit...),

1 SIDECAR IMPERIAL PEUGEOT armed with FM 24/29,

many moto and other civil vehicle as troop transport,

1 HALFTRACK CITROEN P19 Kégresse,

1n camion UNIC with 2 french 81mm mortar,

And some others things, mostly rebuild from abandonned/destroyed germans tanks in normandy.

Maybe one of these days, I must try to reassemble all my documentation on these, and make a CM scenario ^^ These pocket wasn't a peacefull story: the german make some attempt to break their imprisonnement... (they take an offensive and 60km advance in december 44 for exemple)

[John Kettler]

batteran,

No. I wasn't referring to the Madonna of the Niche, if you will, not to the window or whatever it is running diagonally to the image's right above her head. Instead, I was talking about a markedly lighter area in the stonework, visible in both the smaller pic and the big one, on the same diagonal but starting just outside of the niche vertical framing stones.

As for Dauphine, that guy (Capitaine regular French Army or in Maquis?) looks like anything but your average Maquis, whom I've seen lots of pics and footage of. To the contrary, both look to be in uniform and wearing berets to boot. Their posture is military as well. If the Capitaine is anything remotely representative of the crews on that impressive collection of captured AFVs, then I believe that the example you gave may have been mischaracterized somewhere in the transmission of the story. Not necessarily on your end. I now suspect that we're dealing with former French tankers, not Pierre the tabac shop proprietor and Francois who drives a hay wagon.

Regards,

John Kettler

[batteran]

Hello.

It's what I have:

In WW2, French army was divided in 2 main branches:

- FFL "Free French Forces", wo was the "regular" french army: commanded by De Gaulle: mostly colonial forces, and all the soldiers who refuse to fight for Vichy and go to the colony or UK.

- FFI "Inside French Forces", wo was the "unregular": Maquis, Resistance, ect.

The FFL have some formed armored divisions in normandy, equiped with US tanks, the famous 2eDB "Leclerc", and as a regular army, have some training, were equiped, experienced (1940 and Afrika campaign, ect).

The FFI, in constrast, was "local" units, mostly not experienced, and with poor armament.

Capitain Besnier was initialy a reserve lieutnant, who engaged itself in the FFI in 1944, after the debarquement. He's graduate in 1939 from the tank school of Versailles.

He rapidly make a "mobile group" with some civilians cars, and even a sidecar bike armed with a FM ^^ And notably took 2 germans mortars, and make some remarquable limited but rapid actions.

the St-Nazaire FFI colonel contact the normandy FFI, that were very interressed by the speciality of this Lieutnant, as the FFI have absolutely no armored forces, but in normandy, and in particular the "pocket Falaise", belong many germans abandonned tanks, that maybe he can refurbish.

Besnier go with some mecanicians for an inspection, and it's where they took and repair their germans tanks.

Here an interview of one of these mecanicians:

http://www.ranes1944.org/DesFFINormands.pdf

They repair the tanks were they are, with the parts of other destroyeds tanks.

In some of the abandonned german tanks belong the corpses of their previous crews...

"Bien que nous n'ayons jamais conduit ces engins, il faut nous

débrouiller seuls, nous n'avons pas de moniteurs de conduite !"

"We never have drive these things, but we must do it yourself, we have no driving instructor!"

The Besnier unit was the only one FFI armored unit.

[GhostRider3/3]

list of some Soviet gun sights. Notice the T-34/85 had better optics then the T-34/76

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/weapons/sign_tanks.htm

Anyways I do not have any issues.. the game is great!

[Amizaur]

The crew of the Panther shooting at the wind mill could meaure the approximate range to target simply from a map. They would have range set about right for the first shot, and correct with next shots.

They could also use some kind of rangefinder device. Probably there was no rush with the shooting, they could take their time preparing for it, carefully measuring or estimating the range ect.