SPF 251/1 AP Ammo

[Col Deadmarsh]

What is the 7.92m AP ammo on this vehicle?

It's a smaller caliber than the MG ammo it's carrying and yet it's supposed to be used against AFVs.

Can someone please explain this? Also, what Allied vehicle armor can it puncture, if any?

[Holman]

"7.92mm AP" is ammo for the machine gun mounted on the vehicle.

I don't know why it's called "AP" when it feeds the vehicle MG, but perhaps this is just a categorization trick to prevent infantry from taking ammo away from a vehicle's mounted MG. I doubt that it has any special armor-piercing qualities.

[Skwabie]

eh, my squads acquire the '7.92mm ap' ammo from the halftrack all the time as the base ammo load runs out fast. though i wonder too if it's just a naming difference.

[Lethaface]

I always assumed it's simply 7.92mm AP.

[Holman]

I didn't even know there was such a thing (or at least so common), but I see now apparently there was.

[John Kettler]

Colonel_Deadmarsh,

How can the 7.92mm AP ammo be a smaller caliber than the MG ammo it's carrying, when 7.92mm (7.92 x 57mm) is the same cartridge for the Kar98K, the MG-34, the MG-42 and the Gew-43? As for the AP, it was typical for AFVs to use AP for MG ammo rather than ball because of better cover penetration. The US did the same all the way down to the BAR during WW II for the same reason.

Regards,

John Kettler

[c3k]

It has a steel core and is better at penetrating than the standard round. Indeed, it is "Armor Piercing."

[Col Deadmarsh]

Colonel_Deadmarsh,

How can the 7.92mm AP ammo be a smaller caliber than the MG ammo it's carrying, when 7.92mm (7.92 x 57mm) is the same cartridge for the Kar98K, the MG-34, the MG-42 and the Gew-43? As for the AP, it was typical for AFVs to use AP for MG ammo rather than ball because of better cover penetration. The US did the same all the way down to the BAR during WW II for the same reason.

Regards,

John Kettler

I'm no expert. All I see is that it's carrying the 7.92mm caliber for the mounted MG and yet the other MGs for the unit are 9mm. I learned in school that 7.92 < 9 so that's why I made the comment.

Is this not correct?

[Col Deadmarsh]

It has a steel core and is better at penetrating than the standard round. Indeed, it is "Armor Piercing."

So it is better at piercing through the thin armor on a half-track I presume vs regular MG ammo. I can't imagine it would go through anything else.

[Holman]

I'm no expert. All I see is that it's carrying the 7.92mm caliber for the mounted MG and yet the other MGs for the unit are 9mm. I learned in school that 7.92 < 9 so that's why I made the comment.

Is this not correct?

The 9mm ammo is for the infantry squad's pistols and SMGs. German machine guns and rifles are all 7.92mm.

[Fizou]

I'm no expert. All I see is that it's carrying the 7.92mm caliber for the mounted MG and yet the other MGs for the unit are 9mm. I learned in school that 7.92 < 9 so that's why I made the comment.

Is this not correct?

To your right, a 9mm. Middel 5,56mm and left 7,62mm (which is close to the 7.92mm). Just as a comparison and the differens of size, shape etc.

[Col Deadmarsh]

The 9mm ammo is for the infantry squad's pistols and SMGs. German machine guns and rifles are all 7.92mm.

Ah, ok. Good to know...

[c3k]

^^^

LOL, but you are right: 9mm IS > 7.92mm.

Armor Piercing small arms ammo, generally only produced for rifle rounds, can penetrate far more than you'd think. I just got a magazine last night with an article about the new US military's 5.56 round, the M855A1. (It's a "green" round, fer chrissakes. Lead is evil.) From a 14.5" barrel (very short, so low muzzle velocity relative to "regular" sized barrels) it can penetrate 3/8" of hardened steel at 350 meters...50% of the time. Soft steel is cut like butter.

The German 7.92mm round had far more mass than the M855A1. It had about 75% of the velocity, but less advanced penetration materials.

You'd be amazed at what a steel-cored full rifle round can penetrate.

[Michael Emrys]

I want DP bullets for all my guns!

Michael

[Col Deadmarsh]

The 9mm ammo is for the infantry squad's pistols and SMGs. German machine guns and rifles are all 7.92mm.

Now that I look again, I don't know if this is correct.

While I see 152 rounds of 9mm ammo under the player window, I see >1k of 9mm ammo listed amongst the vehicle 'Ammo' screen along with the 2 other 7.92mm guns.

Even if the HT guys had 1000 rounds of SMG ammo, it wouldn't be listed along with the vehicle ammo, would it?

[YankeeDog]

Now that I look again, I don't know if this is correct.

While I see 152 rounds of 9mm ammo under the player window, I see >1k of 9mm ammo listed amongst the vehicle 'Ammo' screen along with the 2 other 7.92mm guns.

Even if the HT guys had 1000 rounds of SMG ammo, it wouldn't be listed along with the vehicle ammo, would it?

What exactly are you considering possibly incorrect? Vehicle ammo shows what a vehicle is carrying, both for use in its own weapons, and also for acquiring by embarked infantry.

There was only one 9mm caliber of ammo widely used by Germany (or AFAIK, anybody else) in WWII -- 9x19mm Parabellum.

The only common German weapons this 9mm Parabellum ammo will feed are the MP40 SMG, and a couple of pistols, chiefly the P38 and the Luger.

So there is no use for the 9mm ammo carried by halftracks other than resupplying infantry units with 9mm SMGs and pistols.

[Holman]

Now that I look again, I don't know if this is correct.

While I see 152 rounds of 9mm ammo under the player window, I see >1k of 9mm ammo listed amongst the vehicle 'Ammo' screen along with the 2 other 7.92mm guns.

Even if the HT guys had 1000 rounds of SMG ammo, it wouldn't be listed along with the vehicle ammo, would it?

There are different ammo lists involved when you're looking at a halftrack and its associated infantry squad. The ammo listings for the HT and for the infantry squad are separate supplies. If you use the Acquire command on the squad, you can see rounds transfer from the HT's list to the squad's.

In fact there are *three* ammo windows involved here:

1) The infantry squad's own ammo list shows only the ammo for its carried weapons: probably a couple thousand rounds of 7.92mm (for the rifles and MG34 or MG42) and a few hundred rounds of 9mm (for any MP40's and pistols).

2) The halftrack's ammo window in the middle of the interface shows ammo for its mounted weapons plus stored ammo available for infantry squads to use for resupply. By default, halftracks in CM carry quite a good load of extra ammo. (In fact, they carry 9mm for resupply even if their infantry squad has only 7.92mm weapons.)

3) However, there is also a smaller ammo window on the left of the vehicle window (right under crew morale) that lists ammo carried personally by the crew members. I'm looking at a 251/1 that lists >1,000 rounds of 7.92mm and 9mm ammo in the middle ammo panel and also lists 248 rounds of 9mm in the left-hand panel. The middle list is available to the mounted MG42 and for resupply to the infantry squad; the left-hand list is what's carried by the two-person vehicle crew for their one pistol and one MP40.

In short: if you've selected the vehicle, none of the ammo shown reflects what is carried by a squad riding in the vehicle. You only see the vehicle's own ammo supply, which is available to be Acquired by the carried squad (or to anyone else) but is not yet part of their supply.

[LukeFF]

The only common German weapons this 9mm Parabellum ammo will feed are the MP40 SMG, and a couple of pistols, chiefly the P38 and the Luger.

And just on a side note, the 9mm ammo will also work with the captured M38 SMGs employed by the Germans in CMFI. That, and there are no Lugers in any of the CMx2 WWII titles.