no scout...next best?

[Erwin]

"You would not send them first on an ordinary infantry probe it daylight, because it would be a waste. If the mission is a infantry probe in daylight, they would either screen an inactive sector, thinly, or form a reserve."

I agree 100%. And anyone who plays CM2 knows that we are routinely forced to use recon units in exactly the way you describe.

So, my plea is to have scenarios designed so that recon units are Crack or at least better experienced that the other units in a scenario so as to reflect what you said.

[Apocal]

Ideally, any specialist unit (sniper, FO, Recon, Engineer etc) should have special capabilities. (IIRC FO's can "see" a little further than ordinary units... or is that only onmap mortars - I forget).

Engineers can mark mines and do some basic breaching. FOs can call for a broader range of fires, faster and more accurately than other units.

[Erwin]

"Engineers can mark mines and do some basic breaching. FOs can call for a broader range of fires, faster and more accurately than other units.

Yes. Exactly my point. At the risk of beating a dead horse, my thesis is that Recon units should be able to detect enemy units better than regular troops.

That's why one uses em in a recon role. Ideally the CM2 game engine would reflect this, but it does not.

So, the quick fix is to give recon units a better experience level. (And do the same for sniper/marksman units which IIRC also have no specialist skills in CM2.)

[Apocal]

Snipers have some specialist behaviors IIRC.

[womble]

Snipers have some specialist behaviors IIRC.

As "Marksman" designated specialists, they're more accurate with their scoped rifles than a non-specialist pTruppe, in a similar way to how "Gunner" specialists in an infantry team are more efficient with their SAWs. Or in exactly the same way as a Marksman designated in an infantry squad is more accurate with their assigned scoped rifle...

[Apocal]

I thought Steve mentioned he'd tweaked their behavior so the spotter was more reluctant to fire? And they had a shorter engagement range generally?

Or am I mixing up requests and changes?

[Michael Emrys]

I thought Steve mentioned he'd tweaked their behavior so the spotter was more reluctant to fire? And they had a shorter engagement range generally?

Or am I mixing up requests and changes?

I've noticed in recent play that the spotter does not open up with his personal weapon nearly so readily and give away their position.

Michael

[Erwin]

"As "Marksman" designated specialists, they're more accurate with their scoped rifles than a non-specialist."

I hope that is correct Womble. But, I am certain that there was much discussion months/years ago about how marksmen do NOT have any special advantages over regular infantry. This is one of those binary situations where there has to be one correct answer - but it's hard to find verifiable info - is it in the manual???

[womble]

"As "Marksman" designated specialists, they're more accurate with their scoped rifles than a non-specialist."

I hope that is correct Womble. But, I am certain that there was much discussion months/years ago about how marksmen do NOT have any special advantages over regular infantry. This is one of those binary situations where there has to be one correct answer - but it's hard to find verifiable info - is it in the manual???

My recollection of that discussion is that they have no other advantage beyond an increased level of accuracy, since the "Sniper" unit did not represent a "Sniper School"-trained "Sniper Scout" in a Ghillie suit. And the increased level of accuracy would not be suffucient to allow them to achieve the sorts of first-shot kill levels as a "proper" Sniper. When BN came out, the "Marksman" was just the "best shot in the unit" given a scoped rifle, and "Sniper" units were just that guy split out from some other element along with a buddy for security/spotting. BFC considered that "real" sniper activities (in the armies which had such specialists, namely the Germans, at game launch) were beyond the scope of the CM engine, since "proper" snipers aren't "line of battle" elements.

So (with the same soft factors) Sniper teams are only as stealthy as any other two-man team. They spot as well as any other two man team with binos. There might be differences in their RoE, which keep the "security" man from firing sometimes. But I'm pretty certain the "Marksman" designation actually means something, though it'd be a total ballache to test, since you'd have to first kill off a team with a scoped rifle, then have a non-specialist buddy aid it before heading to the test range...

[LukeFF]

My recollection of that discussion is that they have no other advantage beyond an increased level of accuracy, since the "Sniper" unit did not represent a "Sniper School"-trained "Sniper Scout" in a Ghillie suit.

Yes, they are seen as sniper school-trained, and Steve has even commented on that. That, and if someone in the Red Army during WWII had a scoped rifle, it meant they had gone through sniper school. The Russians had an excellent sniper training program well before the war began, while the concept of designated marksmen in their ranks didn't come about until the advent of the SVD Dragunov.

Bottom line, if a soldier in any of the CMx2 games has a scoped rifle in a team separate from a rifle squad, they are a trained sniper (the exception being if the scenario designer is trying to simulate a "good shot" being pressed into the sniper role due to attrition, with a low skill level like Conscript or Green). If they are part of a rifle squad, they are a designated marksman. Of course, how well each country trained their snipers varied, but the fact remains that, if they were operating separately from a rifle squad, they were considered snipers.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1297066&postcount=5

[womble]

Yes, they are seen as sniper school-trained, and Steve has even commented on that.

He did not say they are sniper school trained though. He just said that's how you should use them, which makes sense, since they're a two man team, with the inherent stealthiness a small team implies, and given that the US teams have a Garand as the "spotter's" weapon, they don't even have the close-in firepower of a German team (which usually has an MP40). Considering the US didn't have a Sniper School until 10 years after the war finished, you certainly can't consider a US "Sniper" team to be of the quality that the Russians and Germans were producing during the war from their specialist schools.

...if someone in the Red Army during WWII had a scoped rifle, it meant they had gone through sniper school...

That may be true. You'll note I explicitly referred to BN. The discussion around that theatre also threw up the assertion that those sniper-school trained bods didn't hang around with the rifle platoons.

Bottom line, if a soldier in any of the CMx2 games has a scoped rifle in a team separate from a rifle squad, they are a trained sniper..

What sniper training program did those US snipers get? It certainly didn't equip them for the battlefield in the same way the UK, German and Russian programmes did. Steve, when given the opportunity, avoided saying they were specially trained.

...if they were operating separately from a rifle squad, they were considered snipers.

Historically, perhaps, but the game simply doesn't support that, as has been noted: a sniper team is no better hidden than a split scout team with the same soft factors, and the question of the use of the properly trained snipers remains: they didn't, by and large, operate in the same battlespace as the rifle squads.

The advent of RT really throws a monkey wrench in the works, since all snipers on that front were school-trained, and yet they're no more effective than US snipers who were solely trained (in various ad-hoc manners) in accuracy, with little or no attention paid to fieldcraft beyond that of your average dogface.

And still: did German and Russian Sniper units deploy in close support of high mobility, high density combat formations where they couldn't use their patience and stealth and were vulnerable to stray fire and exposed to many eyes?

[c3k]

Creating scouts vs. Scout Platoon

Scout Platoons (or other units) are usually made up of highly trained and highly motivated individuals. They're chosen for initiative, fitness, intelligence, etc. They're given more firepower. They're supposed to be light, and out in front. Therefore they need more organic firepower. They can operate outside normal command and control channels.

Scouts created by the Admin Command are more of a "Hans und Franz, you are on point. Go ahead of the squad and see if anyone's in that barn" kind of scout. There is no assumption of training, skills, or equipment. It is assumed that if they get shot, that they can yell out or otherwise ensure that the mother unit knows that there is enemy up ahead. That is their function. That, and finding mines.

[Erwin]

So the question is still "why in CM2 do scout platoon units not have special skills - like detecting enemy units BEFORE one of their specially trained guys gets shot?"

As I mentioned, in the Russian campaign we are admonished to not waste Scout units as they don't get replaced nearly as much as the line troops. However, it became clear that if one leads with the scouts, they usually detect the enemy by getting shot.

So, that led me to the tactic of splitting off two or three man scouts from the expendable regular infantry (who are replaced almost 100% between missions) and leading with them while the scouts are kept safely in the rear. The Scouts are valuable cos they have 3 SMG's and are great for mopping up, but too valuable to use as Scouts cos in CM2 they do not appear to have any special scouting abilities.

The good news is that no programming is needed, simply increase the Scouts' experience levels to Crack or at least one level higher than every other unit. Am hoping that might enable them to better detect enemy units - and be useful as scouts.

[c3k]

So the question is still "why in CM2 do scout platoon units not have special skills - like detecting enemy units BEFORE one of their specially trained guys gets shot?"

BFC does not buff or nerf units based on "skillz". Instead, the unit is equipped based on historical TO&E. If the unit had extra binos in real life, they get extra binos in CM.

If the editor gives an option of having a recon platoon, look at it compared to a normal platoon. That's where you'll see the TO&E differences.

So, if the recon unit is pretty bare, then it is bare. (The TO&E in game is a research quality level resource. This is down to the individual weapon and ammo loadout, as well as ancillary equipment like binoculars, radios, LATW, etc.)

The only way to increase situational awareness of troops is to use the editor function and raise their experience and leadership level. This is true across all units. Elite scouts are no better at spotting/fighting than Elite riflemen. The difference is that scout units are more likely to have more elite members than a line rifle unit would have. (Scout units skim the better volunteers out of line units. Or they get "volunteered".)

I would use research materials to determine a unit's overall experience and leadership. Say, the 1157th Rifle Regiment: Veteran, +1. I'd then tweak the recon unit, the 1157th Recon Platoon, by making every squad Veteran (instead of just some), and making some (most) better than Veteran (Crack and Elite). I'd also give the scout platoon +2 leadership and ensure they're "Fit" and "Fully" supplied, if that is warranted.

In that manner, the recon platoon would be a cut above the standard rifle element in the 1157th Rifle Regiment.

This tweak would produce a platoon which is more skilled at spotting the enemy and better at firefights, much as a specially trained recon platoon would be.

Create some units like that and see how much more effective they are. Then see how many points your enemy gets for killing them.

Ken

[Erwin]

"...raise their experience and leadership level."

Thank you, Ken. That's exactly what I have been trying to suggest.

[ScoutPL]

I have to agree with Erwin, though for a different reason.

Reconnaissance (Scout) units are especially trained, organized, and equipped to seek out the enemy and report back to higher. These specially tasked units work directly for the staff intelligence officers (at any level) and report directly to them and the commander. Their tasks are often based on the intelligence officers assessment of the enemy and terrain in coordination with the operations officer who is focused on the mission. For example, your battalion has to seize a key crossroads. The intel officer identifies three avenues of approach, each with a possible chokepoint, as well as likely enemy observation points and defensive positions. The Ops officer identifies preferred support by fire positions and assault positions and (along with the fires supporter) likely locations for mortar firing positions. All of these locations are given to the scout platoon. In US doctrine these are called Named Areas of Interest or NAIs. The scout platoon then develops a plan for movement into the area and designates which scout team will investigate and report back on each NAI.

This is when fieldcraft comes into play. The scout team leader than has to develop his own plan of action and attempt to gain as much info as possible. Quite often this will be limited to getting within a few hundred meters of a suspected enemy position and just listening. You don't have to actually see a military unit in order to confirm its presence, they are notoriously loud. You can hear vehicles, you can hear picket pounding, you can hear digging, etc. If the SL doesn't hear anything than he may or may not decide to creep closer for eyes on, depending on how ballsy he is feeling and how many more NAIs he needs to clear.

The scout platoons primary mission is to confirm or deny the intel officers predictions/assumptions of the enemies disposition and assist the ops officer with his planning of actions on the objective.

All of which, by the way, is outside the scope of Combat Mission. This is not a scouting game. Its not a reconnaissance game. Stealth is not a factor. Its a game designed to portray armed COMBAT at the company and battalion level.

There are reconnaissance units in the game. But that doesn't make it a reconnaissance game. There are engineer units in the game but it also does a horrendous job of replicating the capabilities they bring to the battlefield as well.

Recon units were included because sometimes such units find themselves fighting on the front line or caught up in an enemy offensive, etc. So, in game terms, they are essentially poorly armed, low manpower "regular" infantry units.

[Erwin]

Thank you for that succinct summary, ScoutPL. I think that most of us understand the RL role of scouts. What regularly gets confused in CM is game fun vs reality. I appreciate that some are primarily into the history. However, others like me just want to learn how to play the game well (and per RL training as much as practicable).

eg: I don't play on Iron as that's just too hard and not fun except for the smallest scenarios.

In the same vein, it is more "fun" to have specialized units that actually have special abilities that are evident in the game. If scouts do have additional training then would they not function better in the front lines? Certainly the Russian recon are not "poorly armed". They have SMG's that are more useful in the assault than in the recon mode imo.

Again, the briefing for the Russian campaign specifically orders us to not let scouts take too many casualties. If scouts have no special abilities, whether innate or from having a higher experience/leadership whatever... then one may as well use "scout teams" split from the expendable infantry units and keep the precious scout units in the rear until one needs their massive firepower. For me this spoils the immersion as one is "encouraged" to be gamey.

I fully understand that RL "Recon" that could take days or weeks is beyond the scope of CM. What I am suggesting is that if the game is going to feature specialized units then give them specialized abilities. Otherwise all CM2 units are merely "cookie cutter" units with different names. That is a terrible waste of the opportunities that CM affords us to have varied units - each with their own personality of sorts.

Even if recon are not designed to be in the front lines, they would still be better trained, better morale and hence should have a higher experience level/leadership whatever.

[ScoutPL]

I would argue that recon units in CM are just "regular infantry," they just happen to be poorly armed regular infantry. And by poorly armed I mean they lack the versatility of a regular line squad. Yes, if you preview a QB map and know you have a lot of restrictive terrain to fight in, than you may be tempted to cherry pick some recon units that have a high ratio of SMGs. As you say, a great tactic if you are just looking for the best advantage in winning a game, not the way you should probably go if you are looking for a realistic challenge.

I was agreeing that scout squads can best be replicated in game by giving them higher morale and experience status for the small boosts in capabilities this will give them, but in the long run I don't feel their special skills are really at all applicable to CM.

Honestly, I feel the same about snipers. When supporting a line company a sniper team is often best utilized in the support by fire position providing precision supporting fires or used on a flank as an OP (and thus, often not even involved in the actual fight). Sniping as a standalone mission is also outside the purview of CM, for many of the same reasons I gave for scout/recon formations.

If you are just looking for game fun with interesting and unique units that have distinct capabilities than I would suggest another game system that focuses on rock, paper, scissors type of roles for the entities. I say this with all sincerity- I just don't think you will get it from a game designed from the ground up as a specific simulator. The recon units in CM are there to simply give the game flavor and provide scenario designers (and cherry pickers) some more options, not to conduct actual recon missions as they would RL. But I know you have been around for a long time and are well aware of the games shortcomings.

[Michael Emrys]

...the scouts are kept safely in the rear. The Scouts are valuable cos they have 3 SMG's and are great for mopping up, but too valuable to use as Scouts cos in CM2 they do not appear to have any special scouting abilities.

FWIW, what I have been doing is to figure out a location from which suspected enemy locations can be observed and stealthily move my scout team onto it. That means give them a short 360° CA so that they do not give themselves away by firing, and if necessary use Slow movement with a Hide command at the end. After a turn or two, I unhide them and just let them observe. If there are any enemy units within range, they will start to appear on the map. I can then make a plan to deal with them as I see fit with other troops. So that is their primary function: to lay up concealed and observe. Do they do this better than any similar-sized unit with binos? Probably not. But the similar-sized unit of another kind might be too important to use in this way if you have a Scout team lying around unused.

All in all, this tactic has worked out okay so far. What I find is that if you pick a good location for them to observe from and leave them there long enough, the amount of information they can pick up is significant. Meanwhile, your main force is free to do what it does best, which is to attack and reduce enemy positions.

Michael

[H1nd]

FWIW, what I have been doing is to figure out a location from which suspected enemy locations can be observed and stealthily move my scout team onto it. That means give them a short 360° CA so that they do not give themselves away by firing, and if necessary use Slow movement with a Hide command at the end. After a turn or two, I unhide them and just let them observe. If there are any enemy units within range, they will start to appear on the map. I can then make a plan to deal with them as I see fit with other troops. So that is their primary function: to lay up concealed and observe. Do they do this better than any similar-sized unit with binos? Probably not. But the similar-sized unit of another kind might be too important to use in this way if you have a Scout team lying around unused.

All in all, this tactic has worked out okay so far. What I find is that if you pick a good location for them to observe from and leave them there long enough, the amount of information they can pick up is significant. Meanwhile, your main force is free to do what it does best, which is to attack and reduce enemy positions.

Michael

Or use any extra left over HQ units like mortar platoon leaders etc etc. I have done this as well and it works relatively well (as in some times not at all).

[c3k]

Bah. Just find one of those XO teams and run 'em straight at the suspected enemy zone. You'll get all the intel you want and you'll get it much faster. Plus, you'll be rid of that guy who thinks he'll take over when you screw the pooch. Win, win, win.

[Michael Emrys]

But then, who would provide buddy aid to the wounded left in the rear while the main force pushes forward?

Michael

[Apocal]

I fully understand that RL "Recon" that could take days or weeks is beyond the scope of CM. What I am suggesting is that if the game is going to feature specialized units then give them specialized abilities. Otherwise all CM2 units are merely "cookie cutter" units with different names.

I think you could make a decent campaign out of a recon force behind German lines, starting with initial infiltration, pulling off ambushes, launching raids on battalion headquarters and mortar positions, exfiltration, etc.

[ScoutPL]

I think you could make a decent campaign out of a recon force behind German lines, starting with initial infiltration, pulling off ambushes, launching raids on battalion headquarters and mortar positions, exfiltration, etc.

Sounds like a fun campaign, but its not a "Recon" campaign. Its a "behind the lines" campaign that could be fought by an infantry platoon, an engineer platoon, etc. An actual scout/recon campaign would bore most players to tears.

"Ok, I've been sitting here for two hours and nothing has happened. I dont guess the enemy is coming this way." Game End - Total Victory (you survived).

[Lethaface]

Thank you for that succinct summary, ScoutPL. I think that most of us understand the RL role of scouts. What regularly gets confused in CM is game fun vs reality. I appreciate that some are primarily into the history. However, others like me just want to learn how to play the game well (and per RL training as much as practicable).

eg: I don't play on Iron as that's just too hard and not fun except for the smallest scenarios.

In the same vein, it is more "fun" to have specialized units that actually have special abilities that are evident in the game. If scouts do have additional training then would they not function better in the front lines? Certainly the Russian recon are not "poorly armed". They have SMG's that are more useful in the assault than in the recon mode imo.

Again, the briefing for the Russian campaign specifically orders us to not let scouts take too many casualties. If scouts have no special abilities, whether innate or from having a higher experience/leadership whatever... then one may as well use "scout teams" split from the expendable infantry units and keep the precious scout units in the rear until one needs their massive firepower. For me this spoils the immersion as one is "encouraged" to be gamey.

I fully understand that RL "Recon" that could take days or weeks is beyond the scope of CM. What I am suggesting is that if the game is going to feature specialized units then give them specialized abilities. Otherwise all CM2 units are merely "cookie cutter" units with different names. That is a terrible waste of the opportunities that CM affords us to have varied units - each with their own personality of sorts.

Even if recon are not designed to be in the front lines, they would still be better trained, better morale and hence should have a higher experience level/leadership whatever.

Isn't only the TO&E of a scout / sniper platoon with appropriate training/fitness/equipment/moral settings exactly right for modelling scouts/snipers that feature in the game? Yes sniper missions are outside the scope since sniping is mainly FPS terrain. However in the field a crack marksman in a 2 men low-key operating team with a scope equipped weapon IS specially trained to operate a long range precision rifle in a stealthy manner (=sniper). The player is required to provide an appropriate position and stance for a sniper in a tactical battle. For example positioning a sniper on high/favorable terrain, for example in a church tower and using a covered arc to ensure untimely detection.

Regarding scouts: I am playing the Soviet campaign and I have used the scouts appropriate: to reconnoiter unknown (difficult) terrain. The kind of terrain that doesn't feature known enemy positions or fortifications. Their specialization is their formation: it gives you the functionality of using specific troops for the task at hand without sacrificing firepower in your main Rifle/SMG squads for the same task. Those are intended to be committed against known enemy formations, not to swarm out of C&C in 2 man scout teams and attrite (fitness/manpower) against terrain features and enemy listening posts/scouts/ambushes. It is a bonus Soviet scout troops are armed in a fashion that is advantageous when encountering a small enemy ambush; the kind of enemy positions that are not easily detectable, not qualifying for line unit deployment. Their armanent is also suited for other CQB type of action, for example urban assaults. In a campaign it might be favourable not to expend recon troops on (urban) assaults, or it might in dire situations. In scenario's or H2H battle's any bullet can be of importance so I use any available troop as I see fit (victory at any and all cost!)

I don't see the problem with scouts or snipers in the game. A green sniper is basically an untrained soldier given a sniper weapon, he shouldn't be given extra powers for being designated as a sniper. Scenario designers decisions regarding attribute sets of said units is something else, which can be agreed/disagreed upon. Issues resulting from those decisions should not be confused with the deeper workings of the simulated action, all imo ofc