Questions and Comments

[Kauzchen]

Hello together,

i am a CM2 veteran (especially CMBB and a little AK). When my friend and me finally got information that TCP/IP round based works again (despite the fact that is more like a pause function without video repeat option) we decided to come back to the combat mission series by buying red thunder.

Here my first impressions and questions...

1. Good to see that the light Flak seems to be (more) useful now against infantry!

I remember the times then the M16 12,7 quad AA was a infantry shredder and the 20 mm quad has not any effect on it.

2. Good to see that the Ju87 G is now useful to fight tanks (especially only the T-34).

In the old game hundreds of Elite Tankbusters Ju87G were at maximum able to disable the Tank-tracks. Even the Hs129 with 30mm M103 canon were more powerful against tanks than the JU87 with 37 twin gun.

I guess that the game designer did not establish the 37mm tungsten ammo in the old game...no wonder that had no effect.

3.Not so good to see that infantry movement is quite irritating.

Did i get it right that infantry only moves in something like "schützenreihe":

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sch%C3%BCtzenreihe

and is not able to move in "Schützenrudel"?:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sch%C3%BCtzenrudel

But it seems it is not really important because there is still statistic results of fire and casualties.

4.

The trench is in my opinion quite useless. :mad:

Once a 122mm IS-2 tank shell (seem like AP shell and not a HE shell...but even then it was irritating ) had its impact 10-15 meters in front of a trench.

4 guys inside died immediatly ....

Even if we ignore the trench, we should keep in mind that the shrapnells fly not parallel to the soil.

With the trench you only show your head and helmet....nothing else...so why the **** this shell had any effect at this distance?:

If the shells impact were 0-1 meters in front of the trench i would agree with this effect. but not like this.

But i guess i talk about an open wound....foxholes and trenches in the new series never were very useful.

5.

i heard that the machine guns had increased firepower...

i have to do further test but at the moment they still seem quite ineffective.

I am a little scared that the PPSH spray with the low power ammo (500 Joule) and the big spread is a real rival to a light or heavy MG34/42 (~4000 Joule) with its abiliy to provide precise fast-locking-on firepower.

The ability of the germans to produce so many casualities on russian side (especially at theír mass assaults) and hold more ground with less man was a result of the their machine guns (too).

In this game they seem to fire slow and with low effect.

6.

Is it historical accurate that the PPSH still have the drum instead of the magazin?

7.

Where is the 12,7mm DSHK and the StG44

In the manual and in the game i did not find them...

But in the Overview-list in following link you told that these weapons are included:

http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=330&Itemid=567

8. Are you sure about the low cost of a 82mm Katjusha rocket launcher (~15-30 "bucks")

I had a "tiny" game with a friend and was able to spam him to death

9.

Is there no option to transport the 88mm Flak anymore ? Are they meant to be just stationary?

10.

Is it correct that i am not able to move for example the 37mm russian flak without a vehicle?

11. Are i am able to define how many Panzerfaust a infantry group has in the scenario editor?

12. I only see Panzerfaust and satchels of engineers.

Are there other antitank weapons for example ("Hafthohladung" or "geballte Ladung" like in the old game?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafthohlladung

http://www.zib-militaria.de/Deko-Ladung-M24

13.

Is there a list which terrain or obstical (like trench) provides how much cover against fire or sight ?

14. I do not give a lot about graphics but i think it is a very good work and fun to play....

But i do not want to let the infantry "hunt" ...you know why

Thanks

[Kauzchen]

another point:

15. Are i am able to tell for example a wirbelwind to fire on the tracks of an IS-2 tank....

If i would be a Flak gunner i would try to hit tracks, gun, and opticss/slits or (additonal fuel tanks) and not fire useless rounds somewhere in the center of the armor like i recognized the wirbelwind doing on IS-2.

[Kauzchen]

16.

How i can establish damage to houses /enviroment in the scenario editor?

17.

I saw a Panzerjägerabteilung and recognized a MASS of 20mm Quad Flak.

I always had in mind that the 20mm Quad and the 37mm were quite rare on the battlefield (low production numbers) and the big ammount of light AA were just 20mm single barrel Flak guns (not counting MG34/42 in AA action)

Can you tell me something about that issue?

[Kieme(ITA)]

Lots of stuff there, you can modify damage to buildings using key combinations, you'll find them in CM 3.0 version manual in your CMRT folder.

[Kauzchen]

Lots of stuff there, you can modify damage to buildings using key combinations, you'll find them in CM 3.0 version manual in your CMRT folder.

Thx Kieme for your answer to no. 16 !

18.

I recognized that the Ju87G was attacking IS2 always on the turret rear armor.

Would it not be more sucessfull to attack for example the TOP armor of the engine area?

Please do not tell me the attacking angle is not good enough of the Stuka.

Even in case it would be still more sucessful to attack 10-20 mm instead of 80-100.

[Baneman]

Hi there

I will try to answer some of these. This is just from what I think I know.

3. From the diagrams in your links, I understand Schützenrudel to be "line-abreast". No, infantry do not use this formation.

Splitting your squads can help you spread your men out.

5. Heavy mounted Machine guns are more accurate. If, however, the enemy SMG troops get within 100m or closer, they will be a serious problem.

6. I don't know about this, but the developers do a lot of research.

7. Dshk was apparently "lost" when the game was compiled for release. It will be added back in the first patch.

Stg44 are in the game - they are fairly rare, but you can see them in German squads occasionally. You can't "choose" them specifically.

9. Yes, the time to set up and take down for the Flak gun is too long for this to be realistic in the time-frame of a CM battle.

10. Yes. You will see that the Germans also have flak mounted on halftracks and immobile flak.

11. I don't think so. But you can get more for a squad using the ACQUIRE command when they are in a vehicle ( or next to an ammo dump ) which has fausts.

- it may be possible to put ammo dumps down in the editor, acquire from them and then delete them again, but I have not tried this.

12. The Hafthohladung is considered to have been replaced by the fausts ( as far as I know ).

The Deko-Ladung-M24 is not explicitly modelled, but infantry assaulting tanks is abstracted - ie. you will see infantry throw grenades and sometimes immobilise or kill tanks and that's assumed to be with "grenade bundles" and other weapons not shown.

The Russian Tank Hunter squads have a similar anti-tank weapon ( RPG-43 ) which does not show as an icon.

13. No.

15. No. vehicles tend to aim for the centre of enemy targets.

17. The lists tend to give the full "paper strength" even if in reality this was hardly ever achieved. You can of course, reduce the numbers when purchasing in a QB or creating a scenario.

18. See (15). I think that's the reason, but I could be wrong. It may just be that it's really difficult to target tanks with aircraft. See http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=114558

[c3k]

4. If you use the HIDE command, your troops will keep their heads down while in a trench (or other fortification). That will allow them to survive a lot more firepower.

12. As mentioned, infantry close assault weapons against tanks are abstracted. If you stop a tank next to unsuppressed infantry it is likely to get immobilized and possibly destroyed if they have hand grenades. The number of hand grenades represent bundled grenades, and other field expedient means to attack tanks. The game does a good job of punishing armor which gets too close.

[Sailor Malan2]

Hello together

4.

The trench is in my opinion quite useless. :mad:

Once a 122mm IS-2 tank shell (seem like AP shell and not a HE shell...but even then it was irritating ) had its impact 10-15 meters in front of a trench.

4 guys inside died immediatly ....

Even if we ignore the trench, we should keep in mind that the shrapnells fly not parallel to the soil.

With the trench you only show your head and helmet....nothing else...so why the **** this shell had any effect at this distance?:

If the shells impact were 0-1 meters in front of the trench i would agree with this effect. but not like this.

But i guess i talk about an open wound....foxholes and trenches in the new series never were very useful.

Thanks

I am sorry, but you have a completely wrong impression of the effect of a shell going off. 0-1m from a foxhole or trench would convert the hole and anything in it into a larger hole! Don't forget that the shell arrives at a shallow angle doing several hundred meters per sec. The front wall of the trench will collapse even if the shell doesnt explode. 30m away, this effect is not a problem but you still get splinters and blast. The effect will depend on the nature of the ground, but it is unlikely to 'bury' itself like off-board artillery shells (which arrive at a steeper angle). In a trench you will be fairly safe from splinters unless your head is up. The blast will effect the trench even if you cower in the bottom. Also, large lumps of whatever was in the shell crater rain down on you. 122mm shells are big - 20+kg(40+lbs). Even though a small % of that is HE (c3kg - ref more like 0.2kg from a grenade), it will still hurt. The lethal blast radius of a shell is 10's of meters and the fragments may carry over 100m

[Kauz]

@ Baneman & c3K:

Thank you for your answers !

Some of them were a little dissapointing, but that is not your fault.

The 88mm not being able to getting transported and then being established seems a little weird.

Despite the fact that it was possible in CMBB (8minutes i think), we have to keep following things/facts in mind:

A.

the 88mm was a "fire brigade" always trying to move and establish at points were tanks were trying to break through.

Such a scenario i wanted to create is now not possible anymore.

B. It is well known that the 88mm was able to fire and fight without establishing the cruciform mount. Just being still on wheels. The developer could establish this mode as "semi-deployed" (similar to heavy machine guns).

Some footage of this you can watch for example in following link at video-minutes 0:52;1:02;1:03;1:10;1:11;1:35:

C. The most important thing:

"Time to change from traveling to firing position . . . .2,5 min with 6-man

crew (approx. )

Time to change from firing to traveling position_ . 3,5 min with 6-man

crew (approx. )"

This you can find in following allied manual "pdf" on page 9 of 185:

http://www.lexpev.nl/downloads/tme9369agerman88mmgun.pdf

But i guess i have to open a new thread for that...of the developers nobody seems to answer on such a load of questions and announcements in a single thread....

@Sailor Malan2:

I am compeletly aware of artillerie effects.

That i wanted the round has its impact 0-1 meters to the trench to cause damage was exactly planned. Yes....by damaging/disintergrate the trench-wall the round is now able to do damage to the guys in there especially by spraying around its shrapnells in the trench.

You know that the shell won´t do damage if it is far away...

not only because of the shrapnell density decreases with radius (~1/r² with r=radius )

or because the shrapnells bad aerodynamics will let him loose their energy fast.

The problem is more like that:

The higher the velocity of the shell the deeper its impact into the soil will be before it detonates.

If happening so the trajectories of the shrapnells will be not paralell to the soil (which is needed to hit the head of the enemy man in the trench) ...it will be in a bad angle and more like able to kill birds than the infantry man laying on soil or standing in trench.

This leads to simple other conclusions:

rockets have low velocity and are constructed in a way that the rocket will not penetrate anything much but will explode on the soil and provides this way more shrapnells flying paralell to the soild.

Conclusion:

good spray effect ...good against infantry targets

bad against tanks

heavy artillerie (canons) in opposite are build to fire on long range precisly.

the heavy, dense constructed high velocity shells (even the HE shells) are able to penetrate soil and armor quite good before they detonate.

Conclusion:

-better to kill bunkers or tanks or doing substantial damage to entrenchement with a direct hit

-bad against infantry because far the most of the blast and shrapnell spray effect is absorbed by the soil /crate

my Conclusion:

hundreds of 122mm shells may have their impact 10-15 meters in front of my trench ....i would not have any problem by looking out of the trench and watching the rounds doing their work (transporting the soil and the shrapnell with a 30-80° angle into the sky )

In my game the problem was even bigger.

the round was coming flat. that means the impact is may be not so deep...but the round is spraying its shrapnells more like orthogonal to its flying direction...that leads to a much higher spray angle in direction to the infantry...they might be better protected than in the case the 122 shell was coming directly from above with a lower velocity)

[Amizaur]

15. No. vehicles tend to aim for the centre of enemy targets.

I also noticed that AA weapons like small flaks have very small spread when firing against ground targets. Maybe too small, even technically, with the aimpoint too stable. The shell hitting pattern is too small to be really effective.

It would be good if small modification was made, to either increase it's spread pattern, or make the gun to slightly shift the aimpoint a bit in random direction several times per second. This way more of the tank surface would be hit and this would increase the chance for damage. This would also increase it's effectiveness against infantry, spreading shells over somewhat larger area.

Similar mechanizm already is used in game - when tank is shooting at another tank from close range, it doesn't aim directly at it's center of mass - because from 100m all shells would hit almost the same spot, same armored plate. Instead of that, some extra random shift to the aimpoint is added before every shot, so every shot lands in another place - hits against lower armor or against the turret armor are at all possible from close range.

The amount of the "aimpoint shift" for each shot probably depends on range and target size and is calculated in a way that the "overall spread pattern" is about the size of the target.

Similar thing is needed for AA guns, but changing the aimpoint bfore EVERY shot would be both unrealistic and cpu consuming, it would be enough if the aimpoint was changed two or three times a second, best would be if the aimpoint was continously shifted in some zig-zags through target.

Most simple solution - increase the "technical" gun spread radius, or make it depending on target type and range to target.

[Kauz]

....Most simple solution - increase the "technical" gun spread radius, or make it depending on target type and range to target.

good idea!

[Kauz]

wow...still not all /much answers....nevertheless i continue:

19.

I recognized PTRD and MG42 two men groups in action. In the moment the PTRD/MG gunner got killed i would wish/expect the second man (gunner) laying next to him (for minutes) would take the dead man´s weapon (the AT rifle or MG) and continue the fight...

but nothing happens...

:eek:

[bobo]

Exhausted reading the list. Play the game and have fun?

Bobo

[Lethaface]

wow...still not all /much answers....nevertheless i continue:

19.

I recognized PTRD and MG42 two men groups in action. In the moment the PTRD/MG gunner got killed i would wish/expect the second man (gunner) laying next to him (for minutes) would take the dead man´s weapon (the AT rifle or MG) and continue the fight...

but nothing happens...

:eek:

19. Weapons do get taken after applying buddy aid, although not in every case.

I thought that you got a lot of answers already.