Canada Guy Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 One question - what were the conditions for the Germans acquiring the PPSh? Was it German soldiers scrounging on the battlefield (including ammo) and then using them or was it more systematic (i.e. was it specific German units tasked with scouring the battle fields after the battle is complete and collecting and then assigning these weapons to German units)? If the former, then it may be worth some effort to have soldiers scrounge from others. If the latter, then there is no point in having the ability to scrounge in the game as the only way you could then get that weapon would be to have it assigned from the beginning. I also do not like the idea of being able to scrounge the exact weapon that I see lying around. Did it fall in some underbrush, was it damaged, is there any ammo that you can find for it? There must be some stuff that we do not have control over and some of these parameters are what I find make the game even more fun. A second question - will we be bringing back routing as I find that surrendering is a little more unhistorical? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Use was probably more common earlier in the conflict than later as German made SMGs were more readily available by 1944 than they were in, say, 1942. The Germans did not like the drum nor the fact that it fired a caliber that the Germans did not normally stock. Some quantity of PPSh were rechambered to fire 9mm using MP38/40 magazines. How many of these were used by frontline troops in 1944 is the reason we don't have them in the game. My sense is that these weapons were used by various organizations that are not what we portray in our games. For example admin, local defense militias, and the likes. Note that the Germans used, to some degree or another, tons of captured weapons that do not show up in frontline situations. When you think of the millions of firearms they collected in their various wars prior to 1944 you have to wonder what they did with all of them! Mostly stocked them away in warehouses I suppose. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Note that the Germans used, to some degree or another, tons of captured weapons that do not show up in frontline situations. When you think of the millions of firearms they collected in their various wars prior to 1944 you have to wonder what they did with all of them! Mostly stocked them away in warehouses I suppose. Mostly handed them out to second-line troops: garrison troops, security (anti-partisan) troops, foreign auxiliaries, LOC troops, coastal defense, etc. The SS got a lot of them early in the war, but then started to get first call on the good stuff coming off of German production lines. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchior Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I've actually heard it postulated somewhere that the booty from Germany's early war conquests may damn well have bought the Nazis another year by itself. Between their French, Czech, and Russian captures they were basically able to fully equip the equivalent of several divisions that likely would not have existed without all that slack in things like gun carriers and trucks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted March 4, 2014 Author Share Posted March 4, 2014 Mostly handed them out to second-line troops: garrison troops, security (anti-partisan) troops, foreign auxiliaries, LOC troops, coastal defense, etc. The SS got a lot of them early in the war, but then started to get first call on the good stuff coming off of German production lines. ...and occasionally front-line troops: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dare Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Mr Battlefront I hate to disagree with you. Not being a fluent english speeking person is a barrier for a debate with arguments I know you know...but.- a) ppsh is not the tokarev, 7.63 ammo was available in great quantities the quantities of captured ppsh were huge. It was formaly introduced as mp717® and even manuals were printed. it was the "second most common" smg in heer usage c) of those captured, some 10.000 were rechambered to 9mm, and so becoming the mp41, being most of them to equip the wss. d) The heer had an endemic shortage of smg. the authorized quantities were suspectly always "not enough" or "in need of replacement" in front line units. e) mp43 passed througt the ban of hitler due to the high need of smg in the Heer, and this even with a brend new cartridge. f) Even Finland bougth 7.63 ammo from germany...and ordered the fabrication of more than 1 million of the mauser cartridge for using their captured ppsh (funny, cause the ppsh was suposed to be a copy of the suomi) nevertheless, I do understand that having 2 smg ammo will delay the game...as happened before with the stg44 in cmbn, so I hope that your "Use was probably..." and "My sense is..." is a freudian slip and you keep open a window for the ppsh to come in cmrt finally. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 God, I love this photo. Thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Mr Battlefront I hate to disagree with you. Not being a fluent english speeking person is a barrier for a debate with arguments I know you know...but.- I can make this easy for you... I do not disagree much a) ppsh is not the tokarev, 7.63 ammo was available in great quantities Available, yes. But it required another type of ammo to be carried by German supply system. This is always a major consideration. It was one reason the MP43/44 was delayed. the quantities of captured ppsh were huge. It was formaly introduced as mp717® and even manuals were printed. it was the "second most common" smg in heer usage Photographs do not agree that it was common with frontline units. It was used more in 1942/43 timeframe than 1944. Especially in urban combat where the 71 round drum was more useful. c) of those captured, some 10.000 were rechambered to 9mm, and so becoming the mp41, being most of them to equip the wss. Yes, earlier before they received priority for new equipment. I also suspect many of these weapons were kept in storage. d) The heer had an endemic shortage of smg. the authorized quantities were suspectly always "not enough" or "in need of replacement" in front line units. True, but this does not mean the PPSh (original or rechambered) was used as a substitute for frontline troops equal to the shortages. Logically it should, but the Third Reich was not a logical organization. e) mp43 passed througt the ban of hitler due to the high need of smg in the Heer, and this even with a brend new cartridge. The adoption of the MP43 was not to replace SMGs but to replace rifles. That was the purpose of the weapon, but production was slow and distribution of the new rifles and ammo was not efficient. Volksgrenadier units were supposed to have some units 100% armed with MP43/44, but instead had MP40 because of shortages. f) Even Finland bougth 7.63 ammo from germany...and ordered the fabrication of more than 1 million of the mauser cartridge for using their captured ppsh (funny, cause the ppsh was suposed to be a copy of the suomi) The Finns used many captured Soviet weapons. nevertheless, I do understand that having 2 smg ammo will delay the game...as happened before with the stg44 in cmbn, so I hope that your "Use was probably..." and "My sense is..." is a freudian slip and you keep open a window for the ppsh to come in cmrt finally. I agree the numbers indicate that they should have been very common. Even 10,000 SMGs is enough to equip roughly 50 Grenadier Divisions with 2x SMG per Squad for Grenadier Platoons. But the evidence does not support this. I do not fully understand why the Germans did not use the PPSh in combat as much as they did. But I do not fully understand many of Germany's production decisions. Nobody does Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Volksgrenadier units were supposed to have some units 100% armed with MP43/44, but instead had MP40 because of shortages. Steve, do you have a source on this? I don't deny that MP44 production did not meet the paper TO&E requirements, but the problem is there was no late war source of higher MP40 production to make up the difference. It seems much more likely that where units didn't receive sufficient MP44s to meet requirements, rifles substituted. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I have it somewhere in some book read 15 years ago From what I recall they designed the Volksgrendiers to have more per man firepower due to the declining training and headcounts. They had intended the weapon of choice to be the MP44, but production was still way off the mark. So they substituted the MP40 in its place. It is possible that they did so by stripping out MP40s from other uses including standard Rifle Squads. The issue came up again with the proposed Typ 45 Grenadier formation which supposedly had all line infantry armed with MP44s. The irony here is that they had sufficient MP44s built, but due to disruptions of logistics they stayed stocked in warehouses. The majority of MP44s built never left their shipping crates. As for production, the numbers produced did go up substantially through the course of the war. One source I have stated: 1940 = 95k 1941 = 140k 1942 = 151k 1943 = 220k 1944 = 218k 1945 = 86k Heh... puts the 10k re-chambered PPSh into perspective! Drop in the bucket. It also shows what I've been saying is that the shortages of SMGs were most keenly felt prior to 1943. After that as far as I remember they were producing roughly what they needed. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I have it somewhere in some book read 15 years ago From what I recall they designed the Volksgrendiers to have more per man firepower due to the declining training and headcounts. They had intended the weapon of choice to be the MP44, but production was still way off the mark. So they substituted the MP40 in its place. It is possible that they did so by stripping out MP40s from other uses including standard Rifle Squads. Unfortunately, some older sources assign MP40s to Volksgrenadiers because of a misinterpretation that made its way into the US Handbook on German Military Forces. The early "sturmzug" KStNs listed "MP" then later switched to "Stg." This lead to the assumption that they were armed with MP40s until sufficient Sturmgewehrs were available, but was really just the shifting nomenclature. Now that may not be your source, but it seems to have made its way into quite a few books and wargames over the years. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Interesting! Yes, the early MP43/44 nomenclature would surely cause some confusion during wartime intel gathering. It was silly for them to designate it MP in the first place, but we know why they did. Well, you have just nominated yourself to remind me of this when we move onto doing the Bulge TO&E. That will teach you to open your virtual mouth... you get volunteered Er, not that I had any doubts that you wouldn't be all over this anyway. To you in the outside world, if like our TO&E you should send AKD a nice thank-you card. The man is a TO&E double checking machine! Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BletchleyGeek Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Unfortunately, some older sources assign MP40s to Volksgrenadiers because of a misinterpretation that made its way into the US Handbook on German Military Forces. The early "sturmzug" KStNs listed "MP" then later switched to "Stg." This lead to the assumption that they were armed with MP40s until sufficient Sturmgewehrs were available, but was really just the shifting nomenclature. Now that may not be your source, but it seems to have made its way into quite a few books and wargames over the years. It doesn't help that Nafziger TOE's for the Volksgrenadier units refer to the same thing with the term 'assault rifle', 'carbine' and 'submachine gun'. I've been doing some TO&E work recently, and I had to rely on Google Translate to figure this one out. I know the Nafziger TOE's are quite old, but I'm surprised that this hasn't been corrected after nearly 20 years. To you in the outside world, if like our TO&E you should send AKD a nice thank-you card. The man is a TO&E double checking machine! I use CMx2 TOE's as a reference - so THANK YOU AKD! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Yup, Sharp and Nafziger need to be double checked. Thankfully there are scans of actual German KstN out there to look at. Major improvement to have genuine source material to work from! Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 The Chief of the General Staff of the Army (ChefGenStdH), Generaloberst Guderian, released an order to all Army Groups on October 7, 1944 wherein he referred to the considerably increased fighting power of infantry units equipped with the MP44 and stated that combat patrols employing that weapon had proven specially successful in both assault and defence, due to their superior firepower. General Guderian recognized that the switchover from the K98K to the MP44 for all infantry companies could occur only step by step, but he felt that in the meantime a substantial increase of firepower for infantry companies or tactical reserves set up by command would also be achieved by equipping them with K43 and MP40. He therefore ordered that the numerous MPs and self-loaders held by service support forces, artillery, anti-tank units, signal corps and headquarters units should be exchanged for K98ks, so that the self-loaders could be made available for infantry units. Guderian ordered the collection within the division of all self-loaders and dispensable MP40s held by those units in favour of better arming of the infantry companies, even if the automatic weapons had originally been allotted according to the KStN. The collected and redistributed self-loaders and machine pistols were to be used in the following way: 1. The self-loadersd replacing K98Ks in the infantry companies were to be concentrated in the units in order to achieve an increase of firepower, as well as homogeneous and better weapon training for better functionality. 2. The MP40s were to be issued exclusively for equipping tactical reserves of the battalions and regiments, and for units activated by command. This was the first time infantry units were ordered to be equipped with concentration of automatic weapons other than the MKb42, MP43 or MP44. On October 22 Hitler approved the replacement of the K98kby the MP44 as the standard infantry weapon and ordered to rename it “Sturmgewehr 44”. The big problem regarding field deployment of the MP43/MP44/StG44 and other non-standard ammunition weapons was not producing the weapons and distributing them but manufacturing the ammo. Germans experienced severe ammo problems during the war. Once Barbarossa started, the rate of ammo expenditure of all classes skyrocketed (i.e. 10,5 cm ammo expenditure in the second half of 1941 was 50 times higher than production) and all ammo dumps were emptied in a short time. Germans were never able to met infantry ammo requirements no matter how much ammo production increased over time Overall production of infantry ammo 41-44 (in millions of rounds): 1941: 917 1942: 781 1943: 2,441 1944: 4,732 Monthly production of infantry cartridges in 1944 + short cartridges for the MP44 (in millions of rounds): January 288 + 6 February 305 + 6 March 376 + 12 April 350 + 16 May 358 + 29 June292 + 29 July 370 + 47 August 368 + 63 September 358 + 76 October 363 + 88 November 383 + 104 December 343 + 103 January, 1945 282 + 110 The monthly production peak was in November 1944 when 486 million rounds were produced. In a conference in Oct 5, 1944 it was stated that mechanical capacities existed for a monthly production of no more of 120 million rounds of short ammunition for the MP44. This means that from November, 1944 through January 1945 the production machinery was being employed nearly to capacity, so new machines and facilities were needed. That was the true bottleneck for MP44/StG44 deployment and the reason Hitler didn’t approved the MP43 production at first. There was no machinery nor facilities for producing a new ammunition on top of the other ones. If Germans had severe problems with supplying the needed 7.92x57mm (standard infantry cartridge for the MGs, K98ks and K43s), 9x19mm (MP40 and pistol cartridge) and 7.92x33 (“kurz” cartridge for the MP44/StG44) cartridges, then producing 7.63x25mm ammo for the PPSh41 was impossible at a time when they were trying to keep the pace with front expenditure of regular ammunition. That is the reason captured weapons were mainly issued to rearguard and security units which as a rule used much less ammo than front units and could live from captured stocks for a time. However, Germans were unable to supply the needed huge amounts of ammunition for a full deployment of those weapons in the front. That is the main reason their presence is anecdotic in front units. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Use was probably more common earlier in the conflict than later as German made SMGs were more readily available by 1944 than they were in, say, 1942. The Germans did not like the drum nor the fact that it fired a caliber that the Germans did not normally stock. Some quantity of PPSh were rechambered to fire 9mm using MP38/40 magazines. How many of these were used by frontline troops in 1944 is the reason we don't have them in the game. My sense is that these weapons were used by various organizations that are not what we portray in our games. For example admin, local defense militias, and the likes. Note that the Germans used, to some degree or another, tons of captured weapons that do not show up in frontline situations. When you think of the millions of firearms they collected in their various wars prior to 1944 you have to wonder what they did with all of them! Mostly stocked them away in warehouses I suppose. Steve But they DID produce ammo for them. The 7.63 mauser round was used (although it's less powerful than the tokarev round it still works fine with the weapon). The Wehrmacht officially adopted the weapon as the MP41® and issued it with that ammo. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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