Assualting Buildings

[summit1]

I'm playing the "Frosty Welcome" scenario on the German side and am getting my butt kicked by the British paras. Is there a way of talking a building with infantry without taking huge losses? I've tried taking adjacent buildings so I can apply suppression fire, but even these units take heavy losses while moving into position, and after they have arrived at the building they will fire from. Does anyone have a good method for taking building in a close-range urban setting?

[womble]

Suppression. Lots of it. If you can't (for whatever reason; an adjoining building orthoganal to your approach vector provides largely inaccessible protection for the defender for the example), you're simply boned. As is only right and proper.

It's always better to flush the blighters out of where they're holed up than it is to go in after them. Pin them with lots of small arms, and then a few HE presents, whether they be tank rounds, AT weapon rounds, or grenades. Most units won't break until they take a casualty, but they won't break as soon as they take their first one unless they're already shaken up by the fire they're receiving. So, to save your HE a bit, give them some good news with the infantry before rolling up the HE chucker.

If you have demo charges, making explosive entry via a blank wall is a favourite: the blast disorients and kills the defenders, while the following engineers (or, even better, a team with SMGs like an airborne assault team or a Scout or Tank Hunter team) follows up with the coup de grace.

It works far, far better with your squads split, of course.

[poesel]

If you have demo charges, making explosive entry via a blank wall is a favourite: the blast disorients and kills the defenders, while the following engineers (or, even better, a team with SMGs like an airborne assault team or a Scout or Tank Hunter team) follows up with the coup de grace.

IME sending the engineers in is not always a good idea. They tend to die fast and you will need them later. Blasting along the wall and having another team facing the wall works quite well. The blast does not affect the friendlies but suppresses the enemies.

Getting a team to move through the new hole is quite difficult to synchronize with the blast. Its better to plot an area fire on the soon-to-be-a-hole wall. Your pTruppen will happily oblige to shoot at the wall until it is no more and then suppress the enemy.

[womble]

IME sending the engineers in is not always a good idea. They tend to die fast and you will need them later. Blasting along the wall and having another team facing the wall works quite well. The blast does not affect the friendlies but suppresses the enemies.

Getting a team to move through the new hole is quite difficult to synchronize with the blast. Its better to plot an area fire on the soon-to-be-a-hole wall. Your pTruppen will happily oblige to shoot at the wall until it is no more and then suppress the enemy.

If the only thing that will potentially be firing on the breaching team is the enemy in the entered building level, there's practically no danger to them at all. If there are other incoming fires, your breaching team is going to get hosed if they don't Slow in.

Regular engineer teams take 15s to blast a hole if they're not getting hassled by Mr Bullet at the time. Get the Blasters adjacent to the target wall at a turn break. Plot a Blast into the building with a 45s pause before it. There will be a flash and bang as "Done" comes up and you can decide whether to enter the building or just hose it down from outside during the next orders phase. If you're Blasting with anything other than a Regular engineer, I guess you'll have to make a test scenario and see how much longer they take.

[poesel]

If the only thing that will potentially be firing on the breaching team is the enemy in the entered building level, there's practically no danger to them at all. If there are other incoming fires, your breaching team is going to get hosed if they don't Slow in.

Regular engineer teams take 15s to blast a hole if they're not getting hassled by Mr Bullet at the time. ...

If you're Blasting with anything other than a Regular engineer, I guess you'll have to make a test scenario and see how much longer they take.

Problem is that if you 'blast into' they will 'quick' into the building - and be quickly shot by the occupants.

It might be a good idea to default that to 'hunt'. Seems more natural to be a bit cautious with a building you just have blown a wall off...

Tested blasting time: regulars 15s, conscripts 37s.

I wasn't aware there was a time difference with experience. Thanks for pointing it out.

[summit1]

If you split your squad when assaulting a building, do you use the assault command or do you break them into 2-3 teams in the admin function?

[womble]

Problem is that if you 'blast into' they will 'quick' into the building - and be quickly shot by the occupants.

What? The Pinned occupants? I've never had an occupant of the floor that I made entry into shoot back at all. They either die or throw up their hands. Maybe you've encountered Fanatic Elites who aren't as badly affected.

Tested blasting time: regulars 15s, conscripts 37s.

I wasn't aware there was a time difference with experience. Thanks for pointing it out.

Heh. It gets even longer when you're talking about non-engineers. I had an Italian vanilla infantry squad HQ Buddy Aid a demo charge off a dead pioneer. Took them nearly 2 minutes to blow the hole in the wall I wanted them to...

[AntiApplicability]

I have found that urban defenders are very much a digital proposition instead of an analog one. Up until the point you break their will, anything you do against them will be bloody. After you break their will, they'll abandon buildings after receiving comparatively light fire.

The trick of course, is to get them to show their hand early so you can do most of the will breaking at ranges that aren't suicidal. Give it a few minutes of a winning firefight before you try anything fancy, and I bet it becomes much easier.

[poesel]

What? The Pinned occupants? I've never had an occupant of the floor that I made entry into shoot back at all. They either die or throw up their hands. Maybe you've encountered Fanatic Elites who aren't as badly affected.

I remember that versus some US rangers. They were quite unfazed by the blast (no cowering) but I didn't blast into on this occasion.

Thing is that usually you have more than one room/floor in the building and those in the other rooms are not affected by the blast. Those will then shoot the engineers who run into the first room.

[womble]

I remember that versus some US rangers. They were quite unfazed by the blast (no cowering) but I didn't blast into on this occasion.

The Rangers I've come across in scenarios do tend to be Veterans and High or Extreme in motivation. That probably makes a difference; they're the sort of troops you don't want to close with anyway, cos they can lob their own demo charges right back atcha at grenade ranges... :-/

But no cowering at all is, IME, exceptional.

Thing is that usually you have more than one room/floor in the building and those in the other rooms are not affected by the blast. Those will then shoot the engineers who run into the first room.

As I said: if there are others about, whoever goes into that room will get shot; if it's the engineers, you'll just have to buddy aid their demo charges, and wait a bit longer for future Blasts, but at least you won't lose any SMGs (usually aren't any in Pioneer/Engineer squads) . Slow will often mitigate the one-sidedness of the contact, but if there are other defenders who you can't suppress all the way, you probably don't really want to make entry at all if you can possibly help it; it's just too expensive. Still, Engineers can be persuaded not to run in if you use the delay tactic.

The good thing about defenders you can't suppress is that they can't shoot at you, so you can just work your way round them. Until you get an angle where they start shooting at you, then you wind up the fire superiority dial until they're suppressed too. Once you've done this to the whole complex, you can make entry... in an ideal world.

[Frankster65]

Here is a post from Chainsaw on the matter as it relates to CMSF. From an older game but principles remain the same. Hope this helps.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?p=1081038#post1081038

This is how I learned way back when to have my pixel-truppen assault buildings. More options now as features have improved.

[c2yeung]

I have had the same experience fighting allied paratroopers in urban environment.They are usually highly motivated and fire first with their automatic weapons which are lethal in close quarter combat. I find it helpful to split up your platoons, and engage them in multiple angles. The idea is to dislodge from their present position to an area where your other squads can ambush them. If you engage them one-on-one in a firefight, you will lose.

[A Canadian Cat]

I'm playing the "Frosty Welcome" scenario on the German side and am getting my butt kicked by the British paras. Is there a way of talking a building with infantry without taking huge losses? I've tried taking adjacent buildings so I can apply suppression fire, but even these units take heavy losses while moving into position, and after they have arrived at the building they will fire from. Does anyone have a good method for taking building in a close-range urban setting?

Yes, it is an extremely tough nut to crack. I am playing the same scenario and have lost a lot of my men. So far I have tried attacking and attacking and attacking again - no luck. So plan B is to stop attacking there and try a different place.

I do not think that trying to force a win in one place is going to work. If you fail in one place go around the block an try there. That is starting to show results for me. I finally mortared a particularly well placed AT gun which than let me use some HTs for fire support (from a long way back to avoid those pesky PIATs). Once those HT mgs get going they do a pretty good job of suppressing.

So, I lost the better part of two companies trying to crack a defense of a two block area. Once the AT gun was gone I was able to get suppressive fire on one side of the street - all five buildings at once. Then I leap frogged platoons into each building one at a time. The whole block took over 6 minutes to clear and one PzIII is down to less than 20AP rounds and no MG amo left. The upside is that from that row of buildings my guys were able to get LOF into the next block that where I also lost one of those companies. Feels like the defense is beginning to crack. But it will probably be just as nasty once I get to the next block.

[JasonC]

Gee it is hard to take heavy cover directly held by good infantry, using only your own infantry. Doctor doctor it hurts when --- so don't do this.

Combined arms is not about mindless mashing of like on like hoping it trades down. It is about using the right tool for each job. The right tool to remove infantry from heavy cover is large caliber HE fired direct. That is what those weapons are built for, their reason to exist. Use them. I stead of trying to be clever with the splits and order timing of five strings of snake eaters in their shirt sleeves, pull up down the long street that keyholes to that building corner with a Sherman 105, drop the hatch and pull the trigger a few times.

"But I don't have a Sherman 105." OK, whose fault is that? Do you have an SPW 251/9?

"Nope, all I brought is some indifferent infantry with rifles, who barely even outnumber the men inside." So go around, you have no business attacking men in heavy masonry with SMGs using just an equal number of riflemen with bolt actions and no cover. They defend in such terrain, they can throw a net around the SMGers and cover the streets with section LMGs to keep them contained. That is all they can do efficiently so it is all they should attempt, until better weapons are brought up.

"But the scenario design is trying to get me to commit suicide crossing the streets." Who cares? Tell the scenario designer or in real life any brass hat REMF to go embrace himself, and stick to the sane facts above. The lives of your men are not baubles, don't throw them away for some other man's stupidity.

[Vark]

In reality, flame throwers were used in the fighting, both the man-portable and vehicle mounted varieties, before that, direct HE into each storey, from top to bottom. Urban fighting in CM2 is excessively bloody, as the commands available to attacking forces are too restrictive and the simulation of the interiors too abstracted.

I find halting as soon as you enter a structure, at the first action point, helps, Chainsaws, storm in and grenade everything does work, but ends up in exhausting grenades which cannot be replaced.

As for using the assault tactics, don't. The moving team are going fast and blunder into any ambush, the supporting team are often too far away. I normally go quick, up to buildings, area fire, quick inside and wait.

[Childress]

Urban fighting in CM2 is excessively bloody, as the commands available to attacking forces are too restrictive and the simulation of the interiors too abstracted.

Maybe. Also the outnumbered side fights to the death like Custer at Little Big Horn. Wir kapitulieren! We need more surrenderin'.

But I don't think the interiors require more detailing. Abstraction is fine- and elegantly handled, imho. This isn't an FPS. And you don't want to wait two years for the next engine upgrade.

[c3k]

Or imbue your men with a higher level of martial spirit. Their moral supremecy over the enemy will shield them. (Much like it did my paras attacking Bil's windmill. )

Sometime the right tool is the right tool.

[Vark]

I'm finding the, Spartan like morale a bit hard to take as well, especially when attacked from the flank, traditionally a big blow to morale.

I've no problems with the abstraction of interiors, but using whole squads/teams to clear the 'rooms' whilst using an action point system, does not allow you to simulate correct tactics (one person/tactical pairs exposing themselves whilst being covered). I found the CM1 experience sometimes a better representation to be honest.

[womble]

Urban fighting in CM2 is excessively bloody, as the commands available to attacking forces are too restrictive and the simulation of the interiors too abstracted.

I wouln't know about "excessively", since we, the players, have some distinct advantages over the poor SOBs who had to undertake this perilous endeavour in the Real Thing, but certainly the inability to target an empty facade that you would like to have the Sherman 105 turn into a pile of rubble is a restriction.

As for using the assault tactics, don't. The moving team are going fast and blunder into any ambush, the supporting team are often too far away. I normally go quick, up to buildings, area fire, quick inside and wait.

I'd say it was more basic than that. If you're using "Assault", your squads aren't split into teams and you're going to get hosed in urban situations anyway, as your troops either hang the squad's ass out in the street to get holes shot in it, or cluster up in tiny rooms waiting for a grenade to come in the window. Unless you're using Italians, at which point, you're in the deep end anyway...

[kensal]

Not sure I understand why some are complaining about the difficulty of urban assaulting - it took the Germans four days to recapture a few blocks around Arnhem bridge, and they only managed it after bringing up heavy weapons.

[Vark]

If you have 'It Never Snows in September', it gives you a better idea about why that was. As a German said after being attacked by the Russians, 'it cost them a lot of men and tanks, but it drove us from our prepared positions in three hours'. Most Western forces could not be so cavalier in expending lives, so went for expending hours of preparation and relatively cautious attacks.

Womble, thought your squad is split using assault but the interval, between both teams, is too long. Micro-managing both teams is the solution, albeit time-consuming.

[womble]

Womble, thought your squad is split using assault but the interval, between both teams, is too long. Micro-managing both teams is the solution, albeit time-consuming.

I guess you could look at it that way, but I'd think of the Assault command as "moving the elements of an unsplit squad alternately", and think of "split teams" as teams that have been split using the "Split Teams" (and its variations in the Admin command menu) command.

The interval between bounds for squads moving using "Assault" is determined by the length of the bound you give them. You could put a waypoint every Action Spot if you wanted, and then the interval would be very short. For me, it's not the interval that's the problem, it's some of the behaviour round the waypoints, the fact that the teams are divided along Team lines, rather than along purpose lines, and moved in an arbitrary order so you get LMGs and ManPAT involved in the actual "two steps to contact" (if I can borrow a melee reenactment term) and the fact that you end up with your teams in some uncontrollable array, often stacked too densely if it's a three team squad, at the final waypoint.

You're quite right about the solution. I almost always split Assault teams off first, then AT (if there is the ability to split one), leaving a rump of "fire base" weapons. The Assault command doesn't do that. If you split an AT team off, it takes almost all the grenades, and if you leave it combined while you let Assault manage your squad's movement, it's got a good chance of being involved in the actual entry, since the order of team movement appears to be largely arbitrary.