German Sniper Rifles

[costard]

I'm curious as to how commonly the G43 was actually used as a sniper's rifle - it seems to me that there are too few scoped Kar98 getting around in the game (I can't remember having seen one). Anyone else thinking this way?

[Oddball_E8]

I've seen plenty of scoped Kar98's.

The thing is, the Kar98 needed substantial reworking to become a sniper rifle.

The G43 had everything in place and just needed a scope to be screwed to it. It came from the factory set up to accept a scope as easily as most modern weapons do.

And in '44 they were pretty common on the western front, common enough to be seen in most battles in CM.

IIRC every company was supposed to have 19 G43's, of which 10 were supposed to have scopes. I don't think this was ever the case, but that was the intention, so that could explain your abnormally large sightings of scoped ones.

Add in factors like most battles in the game depict pretty well equipped germans and it's not too surprising...

[costard]

Thanks Oddball - it also makes sense that with relatively few being available they'd be parcelled out to specialist teams. It must be my confirmation bias coming into play.

[MikeyD]

Only problem with G43 is that it was a mediocre weapon. The machine quality never got up to standards we normally associate with German manufacturing. Its been referred to as the German Garand. Really, its closer to being the German Tokarev SVT-40

[LukeFF]

Its been referred to as the German Garand. Really, its closer to being the German Tokarev SVT-40

Well, considering that some features of the SVT-40 were incorporated into the G43, the comparison isn't all that outlandish. And the SVT wasn't a bad weapon. It was its complexity and the need to rapidly rearm the Red Army that caused it to fall out of favor.

[Oddball_E8]

Only problem with G43 is that it was a mediocre weapon. The machine quality never got up to standards we normally associate with German manufacturing. Its been referred to as the German Garand. Really, its closer to being the German Tokarev SVT-40

Well with a scope on it, that doesn't matter as much anyway. It's a semi-auto weapon capable of engaging targets at longer ranges than normal.

Doesn't matter if it's not as accurate as a Kar98k, as long as it's semi-auto you get more than one chance to shoot

Besides, who's to say it isn't modeled as less accurate in-game?

[JasonC]

First, the main problem vs the K98 was not lower accuracy - though it was, marginally, not by enough to matter most of the time - it was lower reliability. The K98 is dead simple, there is nothing that is going to go wrong with it. That is not true of the G43. It was not a system with all the bugs worked out like the US M-1. It will just fail to cycle, frequently, and readily fouls.

As a sniper weapon, the scope mount is also very awkward, since it has to be positioned completely behind the action and ejection. This results in a scope position very far back on the rifle. German glass in their scopes was good, but the ZF 4 is a tiny little thing by modern standards. You would be better armed with a $500 scoped rifle combo from a modern sporting goods store, in every respect.

With a K98, you could at least pick a best item out of a large supply, and finish it with care. The larger mag and occasion faster follow on shot would be very minor considerations in the sniper role, compared to accuracy, a natural scope position, and above all perfect reliability. Leaving aside only getting them in 1944 and not in any great numbers etc.

[LukeFF]

[pedantic]

The K98 was a Polish rifle. The correct term for the German rifle is Kar98k.

[/pedantic]

Otherwise, the only thing to add to Jason's post is that the G43 was very prone to parts failures. That's why even today collectors will use stronger, more reliable reproduction metal parts inside their G43s, because the chance of a part breaking is too strong to take the chance otherwise.

[LukeFF]

Also, here are some opinions on the G43 as a sniper platform from actual German snipers:

What was the range of the furthest target you ever fired at, and what kind of target, size?

A. About 1,000 meters. Standing soldier. Positive hitting not possible, but necessary under the circumstances in order to show enemy that he is not safe even at that distance! Or superior wanted to satisfy himself about capability.

B. 400 to 700 meters.

C. About 600 meters, rarely more. I usually waited until target approached further for better chance of hitting. Also confirmation of successful hit was easier. Used G43 only to about 500 meters because of poor ballistics.

If you had a choice, what weapon would you use and why?

A. K98. Of all weapons available at that time it had the highest accuracy for permanent use, besides it did not jam easily. G43 was only suitable to about 400 meters. It also had inferior precision.

B. K98 was best. The G43 was too heavy.

C. The G43 would be good if it did not jam easily, and its capacity was as good as K98.

http://wethearmed.com/rifles/interview-with-3-wwii-german-snipers/

[akd]

So German snipers preferred Polish rifles?

[JasonC]

akd - not even remotely. LukeFF was trying to be pedantic but only managing to be wrong. K98 is a perfectly correct way of designating the German Mauser carbine of 1898 pattern. The Polish rifle was only called anything like that because it copied that specific German pattern - they actually had designations like wz 29. The Poles only adopted them in the late 1920s and early 1930s - the only 1898 about them was the year of origin of the German original. It is a bit like claiming that AK-47s should be called Century International Arms rifles after an importer - pedantic plus wrong.

[Oddball_E8]

I also do not understand this whole discussion on wether or not the G43 was a poor sniper rifle.

They were issued no matter what the recipient thought of them. It's not like they could switch them out willy-nilly to a Kar98K.

The thread was about why there are so many G43 sniper rifles in the game, not if it was good or bad.

[Ts4EVER]

I was always under the impression that the G43 ZF was increasingly common as the war drew to a close, since it was already manufactured with the scope rails.

[JasonC]

Oddball - the rear echelon proposes, the men dispose. If an experienced sniper wants an accurate K98 he will get one, and hand off the G43 to some squadie or other. And the brass won't do anything about it because they will never know it happened.

[JonS]

You would be better armed with a $500 scoped rifle combo from a modern sporting goods store, in every respect.

So, what you're saying is that over the last 70 years technology has gotten both cheaper and better? Well, I never. Next you'll be making outlandish claims like my cellphone has more computing power than the Up Goer Five. Preposterous!

[LukeFF]

LukeFF was trying to be pedantic but only managing to be wrong. K98 is a perfectly correct way of designating the German Mauser carbine of 1898 pattern.

No, it is not. The wz.29 was based on the Karabiner 98AZ, which had its origins in the Karabiner 98 model produced from 1899 to 1908. None of these were the Kar98k produced in the 30s and 40s. Saying "K98" when referring to the Kar98k is just a convenient shorthand - it's not the proper designation. It would be like saying an M91 is the same thing as an M91/30.

[LukeFF]

I also do not understand this whole discussion on wether or not the G43 was a poor sniper rifle.

They were issued no matter what the recipient thought of them. It's not like they could switch them out willy-nilly to a Kar98K.

The thread was about why there are so many G43 sniper rifles in the game, not if it was good or bad.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize we couldn't talk about the G43's real life characteristics here. I'll be sure to check with you next time before posting such utterly off-topic info.

[Oddball_E8]

Oddball - the rear echelon proposes, the men dispose. If an experienced sniper wants an accurate K98 he will get one, and hand off the G43 to some squadie or other. And the brass won't do anything about it because they will never know it happened.

Yes, because scoped Kar98's were just lying around willy-nilly.

Not being in dire need by snipers in general or anything...

[Oddball_E8]

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize we couldn't talk about the G43's real life characteristics here. I'll be sure to check with you next time before posting such utterly off-topic info.

Just saying that the topic is derailing...

[Michael Emrys]

Just saying that the topic is derailing...

*sigh* Well yes, that's what threads do. But so far this has been a fairly mild diversion, people are still discussing the G43. It's not like anybody has brought up crab cakes yet.

Michael

[JonS]

[JasonC]

Oddball - a scoped K98 is made out of an accurate K98 and a scope (with mount, naturally, which is a simple bit of metal). It is not like the scope is made with the rifle. You get to pick which rifle you use the scope with. The G43 may be scarce, the K98s are not, and the expense of the scope (and a trained person, to be sure) is the limiter on how many scoped rifles you get to field.

As for JonS and his daily dose of irrelevant snark, the point of course is that having a semi-auto rather than a bolt doesn't matter, having a 10 round magazine rather than a 4-5+1 set up doesn't matter, having a German glass scope vs a Japanese glass scope doesn't matter, having military issue anything or the most expensive or bleeding edge of its day doesn't matter. The action of a modern cheap scoped rifle combo is a Mauser based bolt, the mags are not any larger. A dead simple, cannot fail bolt rifle means being very well armed, and particularly so if the scope is any good.

On all the points were the G43 is supposedly a major improvement over the K98, the modern scoped bolt rifle from the sporting goods store is the same as the K98, not the G43. But it is still better armed than either, cheaply. No, the point of that is not that the latest technology is light years better than 70 years ago. It is lots cheaper surely, and the scope is better especially at the price point. Modern synthetics make the rifle lighter and weatherproof, and that is a plus. But the rest is basically the same system as the K98 - and still entirely sufficient to be very well armed.

In other words, the point is that particular line of weapon system evolution was already nearly saturated with a scoped K98, not that it has gone on improving by leaps and bounds...

[MikeyD]

At the risk of being grossly inappropriate, lets recall this is the 50th anniversary of the Kennedy assassination. The murder weapon was a (then) 23 year old mail-order Italian bolt-action carbine firing a 6.5mm 1895 cartridge. A 4x18 scope was mounted. Apparently fancy technology is not a prerequisite for lethality.

[Spinoza]

Apparently fancy technology is not a prerequisite for lethality.

Indeed. Not at all.

[Saferight]