Fix the game pls ...

[BletchleyGeek]

I don't care if the TC is dead or not. A running man in a completely open space will be easily spotted. The gunner is look directly at him for Christ sake! I'm not sure what you're argument is here. In fact, if the gunner didn't spot and fire I'm sure a lot of people would be complaining that the LOS system is broke.

I sincerely hope that the kind of magical all aspect spotting ability reported here

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=111325

is gone for good in Market Garden (and a patch for CMFI). There's a problem with tank crews spotting things around them, and it does have quite an impact in the tactical relationships between units in the battlefield. Just as machine gun crews behavior used to have, just like the über ranging and targeting of on-map mortar crews had, etc. etc. etc. etc.

[Oddball_E8]

I sincerely hope that the kind of magical all aspect spotting ability reported here

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=111325

is gone for good in Market Garden (and a patch for CMFI). There's a problem with tank crews spotting things around them, and it does have quite an impact in the tactical relationships between units in the battlefield. Just as machine gun crews behavior used to have, just like the über ranging and targeting of on-map mortar crews had, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Magical?

Hardly!

It has been discussed at lenght in that thread, but just because you bring it up here again, I will discuss it here too.

1: The commander could very well be spotting behind the tank whilst the gunner is occupied with those pesky infantrymen that were "distracting" the tank.

2: It is hardly "incredible" that the commander would be looking out for enemies in other directions than forward since these tanks are obviously on or behind enemy lines. (since the panzerschreck team is actualy creeping up behind them)

3: The panzerschreck team was not sneaking, they were using the hunt command, which means they are walking slowly upright towards the tank.

4: The team was walking INFRONT of cover, not behind it, thus not gaining any cover advantage when it comes to spotting. For all intents and purposes in this game they are completely in the open.

5: It is one tank out of four that is spotting them. This means that three of the tanks completely missed that they were there.

6: We do not know the experience of the tank that spotted them. If it is a very seasoned commander he would know to look around on a regular basis even when engaged in heavy combat.

7: Camo does not give you any "sneak" advantage in the game (since the OP in that thread made the "but they are cammoed for #### sake!" comment).

[Marc Anton]

What about the ambush problem ?

Units on "hide" are mostly unable to spot anything which is more than 5 meters away.

So my units lay totally useless in the woods or behind a hedgerow, window with heads in the sand ? ( "i dont see it, i dont hear it, so its not there" behavior ? )

Thats another totally frustrating thing here !

I can perfectly hide behind my window and overwatch the whole street in front of my house without getting spotted by anyone outside !! Why not ingame ?

Its the same when hiding inside woods or behind hedgerows.

I can melt with vegetation BUT CAN observe any movement !!

Not a bug, sure, but gameplay wise its bad.

Those are only a few similar problems i have with the game.

1. Spotting behavior ( all kind of)

2. Identification speed/effectiveness (took the units only seconds to identify other units EVEN snipers several hundred meters away) (at Elite)

3. Hide and spotting ability (as mentioned above)

4. mortar effectiveness (point-target and line-target ... ) especially during WEGO

5. "Ant Trail" walking behavior of units.

6. Speed of reaction even to flank or rear attacks (mostly tanks)

7. placing ATG´s with good field of fire AND cover + hide and spotting (AT-gun on hide cant spot ..... this is NUTS gentlements)

8. use of explosives on a hedgerow makes the sapper run through the gap afterwards .... why ?

9. no WEGO in MP (my biggest personal problem at all - realtime with hundreds of units and orders to give is NOT an option) and please dont mention the PBEM mode .... its 2014 in 3 months ..... )

10. only 2 players in realtime mode means no multiplayer experience at all.

etc. etc. etc.

Far from being perfect, thats my point.

[c3k]

You bring up some valid criticisms. However, let me just take one of them and give an alternate perspective: hiding and ambush.

If you're peeking over your windowsill and looking at the street, you're not in cover. HIDE (I tend to capitalize in-game commands to emphasize that's what I'm writing about) means to take cover and not expose yourself. If you're hiding below your windowsill, you're protected, but you cannot look out. That's what HIDE replicates.

The issue of whether HIDE should replicate that behavior is a different question.

If you want to ambush the enemy, a short cover arc is a better command. Couple that with a HIDE only if you want the enemy to get very close.

Ken

[A Canadian Cat]

Couple that with a HIDE only if you want the enemy to get very close.

I would go even further and say only use HIDE if you want your men to die when the enemy gets close.

Hide means take cover and don't look up. It is most useful when you are under an artillery barrage that you could not get away from. In fact troops in foxholes and in trenches that are hiding are quite well protected from artillery - except if a round actually enters the trench.

Bottom line HIDE is *not* keep concealed but watch for the enemy - putting a target arc on your troops who are behind some kind of good concealment is what you are after. The cover arc means they will not fire at targets off in the distance (and give away their position) only once they get close. But be careful because if your guys are spotted when the enemy are just outside the arc you guys will likely not fire back. Ambushes are best set where the enemy have very poor visibility from a long distance and you can set cover arcs that cover all the ground that the enemy will be able to see your guys from.

[Marc Anton]

ok but that does not work with AT-guns for example.

I placed a 17pdr between trees and brushes and behind a hedgerow. (the small one) (in CMx1 it would be scattered trees)

When i set them on hide they where hidden to the enemy advancing tanks but where unable to spot anything.

I reloaded and gave them a covering-arc towards the attacking tanks. Now they spotted the tank but did not fire. (LOS but no LOF ? another example for bad mechanics because as a player i NEED those information)

The tank itself spotted the AT-gun within 10-15 seconds and started firing with MG. What was it that the tank could see ? The gun ? The men ?

2 Rounds later the ATG was 100% suppressed and after some 5 minutes all men where dead.

I repeated that with all my guns at several positions without any success.

Whether i found a position where they could not see/could not be seen, anything at all or they where spotted by enemy tanks way before they even shot at them ...

How can i lay an ambush ?

Whats my alternative, gameplay wise ?

That is what i call unplausible game-mechanic, and a game need rules, some kind of ...

We all had that in CMx1 (with another engine, of course)

[A Canadian Cat]

I can perfectly hide behind my window and overwatch the whole street in front of my house without getting spotted by anyone outside !! Why not ingame ?

Its the same when hiding inside woods or behind hedgerows.

I can melt with vegetation BUT CAN observe any movement !!

Not a bug, sure, but gameplay wise its bad.

Ah, don't forget your neighbours are not keeping careful watch for you, afraid at any moment you will try to kill them, at least I hope their are not:-) In game the enemy are watching out for trouble and scanning windows with binoculars if they have them etc.

1. Spotting behavior ( all kind of)

Yeah a bit to general and all encompassing a statement. No one can fix something that generic but they will argue with you about it.

2. Identification speed/effectiveness (took the units only seconds to identify other units EVEN snipers several hundred meters away) (at Elite)

Indeed. The unit identification has been reworked in CMFI 1.1 (or 1.11 I forget which version) for the Elite level, so that you cannot tell which unit is which only that there are some infantry over there. I suspect that the patch that comes with the MG module will bring that wonderful FOW feature to CMBN.

4. mortar effectiveness (point-target and line-target ... ) especially during WEGO

Interesting. Not sure what's up here. I like my mortars but I don't see them doing miraculous things. Or are you saying they should not have line or point target as options? And AI targeting and other behaviour in WEGO is no different than real time so not sure what you mean there.

5. "Ant Trail" walking behavior of units.

Oh that would be a nice thing to see changed. Agreed.

6. Speed of reaction even to flank or rear attacks (mostly tanks)

Yeah, I don't disagree there either. Steve from BFC made some recent comments about reaction times of tanks that I found very encouraging. I am hopeful.

7. placing ATG´s with good field of fire AND cover + hide and spotting (AT-gun on hide cant spot ..... this is NUTS gentlements)

This is a challenge for sure but you can do it. And don't for get do not hide your AT guns unless you want them to die or they are being shelled. Period.

If you want them to stay hidden from view make sure they have very good concealment and only a few key whole sight lines and put a whole map armour covered arc on them so they do not give away their positions by firing at the enemy's infantry scouts.

Don't forget by the time we are on a CM map that is often less than 1km wide we are already fighting at close range for them.

8. use of explosives on a hedgerow makes the sapper run through the gap afterwards .... why ?

They do not have to if you don't tell them to:) Here is what you; give them regular movement orders right up to the bocage. Then a blast order parallel to the bocage and then a fast move further along the bocage. The will move side ways a bit set their charges and then run away staying mostly under cover. Much better than having them run into the field.

9. no WEGO in MP (my biggest personal problem at all - realtime with hundreds of units and orders to give is NOT an option) and please dont mention the PBEM mode .... its 2014 in 3 months ..... )

OK I will not mention PBEM but I don't get what you are referring to. Are you referring to the no WEGO support for net work connection?

10. only 2 players in realtime mode means no multiplayer experience at all.

Oh that would be very cool. Good feature request. Perhaps they will get there one day who knows.

Far from being perfect, thats my point.

OK point taken. My point would be the game is far from being broken and unplayable. In fact quite the opposite it is loads of fun and very challenging. It is of generally very high quality. Those willing to learn get better. I know because I am a way better player now then I was when I started. And this is a great resource for finding out how to play the game as it is.

[Marc Anton]

Quote: Originally Posted by Marc Anton

7. placing ATG´s with good field of fire AND cover + hide and spotting (AT-gun on hide cant spot ..... this is NUTS gentlements)

This is a challenge for sure but you can do it. And don't for get do not hide your AT guns unless you want them to die or they are being shelled. Period.

If you want them to stay hidden from view make sure they have very good concealment and only a few key whole sight lines and put a whole map armour covered arc on them so they do not give away their positions by firing at the enemy's infantry scouts.

Don't forget by the time we are on a CM map that is often less than 1km wide we are already fighting at close range for them.

And here we are ... Hidden units cant spot tanks ... that is the dilemma here !

Are you referring to the no WEGO support for net work connection?

Yes i want it back. The only way to play a complex game like CM is whether in WEGO-mode or with AT LEAST 2-3 vs x in realtime-mode. (in my opinion, of course ..)

[A Canadian Cat]

ok but that does not work with AT-guns for example.

I placed a 17pdr between trees and brushes and behind a hedgerow. (the small one)

Right I recommend much less visibility for the AT gun. Use the terrain to shield one side of the gun completely, try to find a dip in the ground and position it so it can just see out. When you use the LOS tool look for a light blue line that means they should be able to fire at that location. Even then you might want to just back off a bit further. The LOS tool tells you if you can hit the ground at that point not a 2m tall tank so sometimes you are better off not being able to see the ground.

I recently ran a test (for some spotting questions) and I setup a 50mm at gun out in the open with a 1m drop in the terrain as its only protection. At 1200m very few tanks spotted it and I ran the test many many times. The gun was firing at the tanks too and hitting. Most saw nothing. Some identified that there must be an AT gun out there and only a precious few actually spotted the gun.

There are some issues with the LOS tool not being very helpful and another thread has recently made that point. So it is not perfect which is why I suggest making sure the gun can only see a small window or two in the terrain. Also keep in mind the 17pdr is a pretty big gun and I am going to guess the ranges were under 700m.

That is what i call unplausible game-mechanic, and a game need rules, some kind of ...

We all had that in CMx1 (with another engine, of course)

The rules you seak are just different in CM2x. They are better. They make it much harder. But more fun too. IMHO

[A Canadian Cat]

And here we are ... Hidden units cant spot tanks ... that is the dilemma here !

That is correct. Stop hiding units you want to fight. Hiding means don't fight. Think of it that way.

[simmox]

as a regular QB player over at BoB

i've all but given up on CM1 style defensive setups in QBs

AT guns for me,just arent worth the points,unless the map is very deep/long then maybe.

but you cant rely on them to do their job.better to spend points on mobile assets imho.

i enjoy my CM and continue to play regardless of the annoyances

super improved MG effectiveness and Identification of units was an excellent upgrade over the earlier model.

certainly would like to see formation options for squads.line,column,wedge would be enough for me.

spotting and C2 is still a gamble alot of the time.i cant count how many times my perfectly placed TD,cant see the armor crossing it LOS in good conditions,then,on the other hand,and in a current game,my little PZIII blunders straight into the LOS of an M10 at 200 meters or less,the M10 doesnt spot me flank on ,i turn and KO the poor sod after the second shot,granted the M10 was buttoned but so was i,it didnt react at all.

i put it down to the luck of the gods,or the roll of the dice.

WEGO in network play is a must,i cant understand this omission at all,i suggest it was just too hard.

however with the advent of Dropbox and H2HH its a minor gripe now.

being able to select nationality and/or branch in pbem without asking the initiating player to do it for you.this was one of the things i liked in CM1,you could pick your forces and not know what your opponent chose until the game start proper.

looking forward to MG but really need an eastern front fix soon:)

[Marc Anton]

This game needs the very same function like we had in CMx1 !

Hide yourself, take cover but overwatch the battlefield - DONT fight until the enemy is very close or moves into your firing-arc, BUT DONT expose yourself/your gun to the enemy.

That was so simple and it worked.

But now it doesnt ...

Hide now means "stick your head into the ground and do nothing"

My alternative as a player is "just stay where you are and get spotted by every honk miles away ..."

And on top of that all i need to give EVERY unit a covering-arc to prevent them from exposing themselves prematurely do to gunfire in order to have the ability to overwatch the battlefield but without the guaranty that they are hidden.

Jesus that is so crazy ... in realtime MP its a no-go.

[A Canadian Cat]

This game needs the very same function like we had in CMx1 !

Hide yourself, take cover but overwatch the battlefield - DONT fight until the enemy is very close or moves into your firing-arc, BUT DONT expose yourself/your gun to the enemy.

That was so simple and it worked.

But now it doesnt ...

Well I, and others, have already told you how the new game works to get the same hold your fire and wait behaviour you want.

The way I see it is you have a choice: continue to insist that the new game should play just like the old game and be frustrated. Or you can learn how the new game works. If you choose the first - all I can say is I tried to help - sorry man.

If you choose the second I recommend you start a new thread with a question and not a statement and you will get help. My friendly advice would be to you stop posting the same demand over and over on this thread.

[Michael Emrys]

I placed a 17pdr between trees and brushes and behind a hedgerow.

I'm not sure how critical it is to the present discussion, but I feel obliged to point out that the 17 pdr is a really, really big gun. It would not be my first choice for an ambush situation. The German 88 mm is even bigger and the US 76 mm is almost as big. These would require considerable work beforehand to emplace so that they would not be spotted by an alert enemy intending to stay alive. I'm not confident that the game in its present state is able to duplicate that kind of camouflage effort.

Michael

[MikeyD]

I vaguely recall seeing an old British report that claimed the average number of rounds fired by a 4 pounder AT gun in battle (western desert) before being destroyed was on the order of 6 - 9. It seems unreasonable to expect an AT gun that finds itself in the middle of a hot situation - especially within rifle range of the enemy - is going to survive for long in the best of circumstances. Firing from one side of a valley to the other, stretching your gun's capabilities to the limit, that's another matter entirely. Those folks may just live to see another day.

[Marc Anton]

Well I, and others, have already told you how the new game works to get the same hold your fire and wait behaviour you want.

The way I see it is you have a choice: continue to insist that the new game should play just like the old game and be frustrated. Or you can learn how the new game works. If you choose the first - all I can say is I tried to help - sorry man.

If you choose the second I recommend you start a new thread with a question and not a statement and you will get help. My friendly advice would be to you stop posting the same demand over and over on this thread.

Sorry but maybe its my fault (my english) what prevents you from understanding what iam talking about ?!

What you told me and what you suggest is NOT working.

Last time:

A hidden gun is hidden, the enemy cant see it so it is safe.

A hidden gun cant spot anymore and cant see any potentially targets in its FOV.

The very same gun on overwatch at the very same position is not hidden to the enemy. Why ? Whats the difference ?

The cover-arc does not have any affect to the ability of spotting the gun.

Isnt it strange ?

[Marc Anton]

I'm not sure how critical it is to the present discussion, but I feel obliged to point out that the 17 pdr is a really, really big gun. It would not be my first choice for an ambush situation. The German 88 mm is even bigger and the US 76 mm is almost as big. These would require considerable work beforehand to emplace so that they would not be spotted by an alert enemy intending to stay alive. I'm not confident that the game in its present state is able to duplicate that kind of camouflage effort.

Michael

Thats a point.

[A Canadian Cat]

A hidden gun is hidden, the enemy cant see it so it is safe.

A hidden gun cant spot anymore and cant see any potentially targets in its FOV.

The very same gun on overwatch at the very same position is not hidden to the enemy. Why ? Whats the difference ?

The cover-arc does not have any affect to the ability of spotting the gun.

OK, I see. The gun with the hide command might be slightly harder to spot because the extra guys are heads down. But I do not thing this should be significant. I suspect you are seeing luck - as in bad. How many times have you run the turn to test this? And by that I mean see the "Computing Real-time action" message and review the turn again.

If you find that the AT gun that has a HIDE order and not firing is spotted significantly less often than the AT gun that is just not firing but has no HIDE command then I would call that a bug.

[Marc Anton]

I tested it so many times while trying to understand the mechanics with the same results.

I would not call it a bug, its just an engine problem i guess ?