Abrams ammo question

[ww2steel]

Hello, I'm sure this is answered somewhere in here, and I've found some that get close- but I've been searching for an hour to no avail...

Why does the Abrams only seem to reflect turret ammo stowage in game? I am finding that the M1A1 carries 40 (as it always has) and the M1A2 carries 42 - but in the game I am always getting -6 (34/36 total) rounds for each. I hear that this is in hull storage, why is this not in the game?

(Also, shouldn't the M2 Bradley have 5+2 TOW? And the M3 crew seems odd too.)

Thanks!

[Apocal]

(Also, shouldn't the M2 Bradley have 5+2 TOW? And the M3 crew seems odd too.)

Only if the men wear the missiles as hats.

[JMFC]

That many TOWs would mean there's no room in the back for the guys that have to reload it.

[ww2steel]

Okay, I thought there was stowage for 5 and 2 in the tubes, online sources said the same. Never been in a Bradley though.

The primary question was the Abrams. It seems the hull ammo is left out completely. I figure there is a reason, but, why?

[Skwabie]

found something interesting. apparently the hull ammo is there in a campaign:

but when i extract the scenario from the campaign and play it as a single one the hull ammo's gone:

something weird going on here:confused:

[George MC]

I've a vague recollection when CMSF was being created that one of the testers had served or at least had experience of crewing a M1. The ammo in the hull is carried but it was not ammo that could be accessed during action. It required the vehicle to pull out of action and allow the crew to access the stowed ammo and redistribute it into the ready bins (or whatever they are called i.e. easy access ammo).

Re images above - this mat account for why they show in the campaign - as when the tank pulls out of combat i.e. between scenarios the crew can access the hull stowed ammo.

[agusto]

I've a vague recollection when CMSF was being created that one of the testers had served or at least had experience of crewing a M1. The ammo in the hull is carried but it was not ammo that could be accessed during action. It required the vehicle to pull out of action and allow the crew to access the stowed ammo and redistribute it into the ready bins (or whatever they are called i.e. easy access ammo).

Re images above - this mat account for why they show in the campaign - as when the tank pulls out of combat i.e. between scenarios the crew can access the hull stowed ammo.

LOL the degree of detail in CMSF is astonishing.

[George MC]

It's pretty cool eh?

[YankeeDog]

2 TOW in launch tubes + 5 in hull stowage for the Bradley is correct. The Bradley is designed to carry this many TOW missiles in addition to passengers -- the missile storage does not take up passenger room. However, reloading the launch tubes from hull stowage involves the crew opening up hatches and exposing themselves outside the armor, and the missiles are fairly large and heavy; it's a procedure that takes a few minutes. So it not generally something the crew would be likely to attempt anywhere there was risk of incoming fire.

This said, I have read accounts of Bradley crews reloading the tubes in the middle of a "hot" engagement -- It's been a while since I read the AARs, but IIRC, some of the Bradleys in the 2nd ACR did exactly this during the Battle of 73 Easting -- they fired off their two missiles, backed down into defilade to reload, and then popped up to fire again at additional targets.

So CMSF's hard prohibition on Bradleys reloading the firing tubes during a scenario is probably a bit too restrictive. But going the other way and simply allowing the Bradley to fire all seven missiles without going through a re-loading period definitely would not be realistic, either. And it would probably be a fairly hard thing to code. The Unit AI could probably not be trusted to "know" when or when not to initiate a reload procedure that would expose the crew and require the vehicle to remain stationary for several minutes, so BFC probably would have had to code in a special "reload TOW" command for Bradleys or something.

EDIT to add: Curiously, the TOW Strykers *can* reload their twin TOW launchers from hull stowage in CMSF. However, the "Hammerhead" TOW turret on the Stryker is somewhat easier to reload -- the gunner/loaders have an access hatch directly behind the turret that makes it easier them to pull missiles up from the hull and get them into the launcher without exposing themselves too much. So you can make the argument that this is a reasonable abstraction.

[akd]

Simply only allowing the reload from stowage if the vehicle is unbuttoned would be a good compromise.

[YankeeDog]

Simply only allowing the reload from stowage if the vehicle is unbuttoned would be a good compromise.

The "Reload while unbuttoned" SOP is already used for some AFV weapons in the game, like the .50 BMG or 40mm AGL on the Stryker weapons station or M1 Abrams CWS.

But this is not sufficient in the case of the Bradley; the vehicle has to remain stationary while the missiles are being reloaded, and at least one crew member has to get out of the vehicle and work while standing/crouching on the hull. The procedure would probably also take at least two CM game turns, and is not something that could be easily stopped mid-stream. So it's not something the AI should just start automatically.

[akd]

Compromise. The point is that it means crew has to be exposed, which in turn means you'd want it protected and probably stationary. I guarantee BFC is not going to add a command just for reloading Bradley TOW.

[YankeeDog]

Compromise. The point is that it means crew has to be exposed, which in turn means you'd want it protected and probably stationary. I guarantee BFC is not going to add a command just for reloading Bradley TOW.

I still don't think that really works. There are other reasons to unbutton a Bradley than reloading, such as if the optics aren't in good condition and you want some eyes outside the vehicle. And if the crew automatically starts reloading the TOWs if you unbutton, then to be realistic the vehicle should effectively be immobilized for at least two minutes while the reload is taking place. Turret can't move during the reload, either, so the chain gun and coax should be temporarily disabled as well.

The reload procedure also exposes the crew considerably more than simply opening the hatch and poking out heads, so this would have to be modeled.

Overall, I think the simple "no reload" abstraction is a better "compromise" than having the Bradley TOWs be easily reloaded when unbuttoned, as the CWS and Hammerhead turrets can.

The Bradley's TOW system does get some abstractions in it's favor in compensation. For example, the Bradley has to be on nearly flat terrain to fire the TOW; CMSF does not seem to model this restriction.

[ww2steel]

???

Am I missing something (as this is the base CMSF forum), I am on 1.32 with all modules.

On mine it's 40 seconds to reload each tube on the Bradley in my game, for both M2 &

M3, the same reload time as all other TOW systems except that it was a single missile loaded each 40 seconds. On mine it will fire two, reload if not moving (but if moving it is instantly loaded once the order stops, if time has expired). The only quirk I see (other that being to short of time) is that if you fire one missile and they start a loading drill (which they do on their own) that for the next 40 seconds they are a sitting duck, even with all weapons otherwise ready. Regardless, it seems to work pretty well to me without adding a complicated reload command.