Need help ID'ing a Sherman

[LukeFF]

I got to visit the Latrun Tank Museum in Israel this past week, which has an absolutely awesome collection of tanks. On display is this particular Sherman. If I'm looking at it correctly, this is an M4A1(76)VVSS with an M1A2 gun and muzzle brake. Is that correct?

[Seedorf81]

I knew most birds love uniforms, but this one loves tanks.

But seriously, what tank is partially shown on the right?

[iMolestCats]

But seriously, what tank is partially shown on the right?

Cromwell, found the exact tank...

[Seedorf81]

Thanks.

And I thought I knew a lot about WW2..

[MikeyD]

You got the Sherman tank correct. Sometimes you have to do a double-take with Israeli Shermans. Often they'd mix-and-match parts, or swap out the US high pressure gun for a postwar French medium pressure gun in 90mm or 105.

You've got to wonder what's up with the Cromwell and the fake gun welded on. Either it was used as a command vehicle, artillery observation vehicle, training tank, or the museum just threw it together for fun. Late production vehicle - note the Churchill VII-style rotating commander's cupola.

[Wicky]

Looks like the Cromwells arrived in May 1948 as reinforcements for the British army before getting 'lost' shortly afterwards....

Prior to the War of Independence in 1948, two Cromwell tanks were stolen by IDF combatants from a British Army base before they left Mandated-Palestine. These two tanks took part alongside French Hotchkiss light tanks in Operations Dany, Yoav and Horev of the 1948 War of Independence.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mosh70/7627253626/

Michael (Paddy) Flanagan of the 47th Dragoon Guards (Armored) stationed near Haifa in 1948 was one of the Brits who “liberated” a couple of Cromwell tanks. Paddy served alongside my dad in what was to become the 82nd Tank Battalion, part of the IDFs 8th Brigade. I managed to find Paddy alive and well. He had this to say: “When your Dad and I joined up with the Haganah, we had three tanks – two Cromwells and a Sherman we scrounged together from scrap taken from the desert, courtesy of the campaign during World War II. That was it. We were the only tanks Israel had. When I think back to the odds stacked against us, those Arabs were armed to the teeth, it was amazing we survived, let alone won!” I asked Paddy why he had deserted. “Because I was a bloody nut,” he chortled in his Irish way, before confessing up to a romantic situation which had arisen with an Israeli girl destined to become his wife. In fact, the two Cromwells were to carry the names “Ruth” and “Miriam” painted on their sides, in honor of the two special ladies, one of whom, Ruth, was Paddy’s girl, and the other was already the wife of one Sergeant Desmond Rutledge, also from the 6th Airborne, later to change his name to Zvi Rimer.

http://www.machal.org.il/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=462&Itemid=793〈=en

Three British Tanks Stolen in Palestine HAIFA, June 29 (AP) -Three British Cromwell tanks were reported stolen early today as the Army moved aboard ships ready to pull out of Palestine within 24 hours.

Only a handful of troops remained ashore, burning furniture and completing destruction of weapons and armored vehicles to be left behind Lt Gen Gordon MacMillan ordered strict secrecy as to when the British troops would leave the soil of the Holy Land. High Jewish sources said the evacuation would be complete by tomorrow morning.

The three tanks were said to have been driven away from under the noses of British guards at Haifa Airport. One was found abandoned later with a damaged gear shift.

Army sources expressed belief the tanks were taken by deserters on their way to join the Jewish Army.

http://cojs.org/cojswiki/Three_British_Tanks_Stolen_in_Palestine,_Associated_Press,_Boston_Evening_Globe,_June_29,_1948.

[LukeFF]

Wicky, thanks for the info about the Cromwell tanks. The placard mentioned that this tank was stolen, but it didn't explain how. Also, is this a III or a IV? The placard described it as a "III/IV." :confused:

[LukeFF]

You got the Sherman tank correct. Sometimes you have to do a double-take with Israeli Shermans. Often they'd mix-and-match parts, or swap out the US high pressure gun for a postwar French medium pressure gun in 90mm or 105.

Thanks! And yeah, you're right about Israeli Shermans - they modified theirs to the hilt, and then some. This museum must hold the record for the most number of Sherman variants on display. Those M51s are just so cool-looking!

On a side note, in front of the M4A3(105) was a placard describing how the 105mm-gunned Shermans were received from the Americans with a hole drilled through the bore, so they obviously had to repair them before putting them in service. I wonder what the US's reason was for doing that to the barrel?

[altipueri]

Were these the same terrorists that blew up the King David's hotel killing about 90 people?

[JonS]

"Terrorist" is such a slippery word. Nelson Mandela was labeled "terrorist" at one time.

[Baneman]

...You've got to wonder what's up with the Cromwell and the fake gun welded on. Either it was used as a command vehicle, artillery observation vehicle, training tank, or the museum just threw it together for fun ...

Maybe the museum wanted to keep windblown dirt etc. from getting in the standard rather open fitting - esp. since it's outside.

Just a guess.