Normandiefront!

[Jaeger Jonzo]

Apologies if it has been mentioned before, but What a great book this is, written from the German side. Based on veteran survivor accounts from the 352nd Infantry division, it covers all the action from the pillboxes on Omaha beach right through to the divisions virtual destruction at St. Lo.

I have read many books on the Normandy campaign from all sides and divsions involved, but never one from the guys actually defending the beaches on the day.

It is harrowing and yet fascinating reading and there are many interesting revelations and insights into the action on the first few days of the invasion.

Heartily recommended read and probably great material or incentive for any budding scenario designers. :cool:

[Blazing 88's]

Thanks for this I will have to check it out. I always appreciate docs or books from the German perspective.

[sburke]

Apologies if it has been mentioned before, but What a great book this is, written from the German side. Based on veteran survivor accounts from the 352nd Infantry division, it covers all the action from the pillboxes on Omaha beach right through to the divisions virtual destruction at St. Lo.

I have read many books on the Normandy campaign from all sides and divsions involved, but never one from the guys actually defending the beaches on the day.

It is harrowing and yet fascinating reading and there are many interesting revelations and insights into the action on the first few days of the invasion.

Heartily recommended read and probably great material or incentive for any budding scenario designers. :cool:

Fantastic book and I had the good fortune to read it at Broadsword56's recommendation just prior to us launching a campaign game where I commanded the 352nd. I also had Mord and Darknight's great unit icons for it while playing. Fun stuff.

[John Kettler]

Jaeger Jonzo,

There is/was a survivor who was a machine gunner in a German pillbox on Omaha beach. He coukldn't believe the forces arrayed against him. Believe his name was Fritz (no joke) and a last name starting with a "P." I've seen him interviewed on the History Channel, the Military Channel and elsewhere. No joy so far in coming up with his name.

Blazing 88's,

If you haven't read Carrell's Invasion! They're coming, then you're missing out. Paul Carell, true name Paul Karl Schmidt of the Propaganda Korps, had excellent access to the soldiers who were there. Naturally, he interviewed only the survivors! It's been ages since I read it, but I recall it as being a great read with lots of fascinating stories. One of my favorite involved a a big fortified naval gun whose position was nowhere nearly complete, yet had to fight anyway. Something to do about improvising a battery clock and managing to hit a destroyer. Gun was at Marcouf, I believe.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Blazing 88's]

Thanks John, I will give it a look. It does sound familiar though.

[Jaeger Jonzo]

Yes have seen that documentary on the military history channel, again a harrowing and yet fascinating program. They reunite the mg gunner with a US vet from the landings, very poignant.

I can't recommend this book enough, almost every other page has startling revelations and insights, like German mg gunners being issued with wooden training 'blank' ammo as their real ammo ran low. They quickly realised green US troops would go to ground as soon as an mg let rip, allowing the Germans to retreat or redeploy without wasting real ammo!

Also many bunkers on the beaches held out into the following day!

The 352nd also launched night attacks against the beaches on the night of the invasion day, not to mention them defending against elements of 4 different divisions!

The 352's stug abt. Launched counterattacks against the British 50th and US divisions in the early morning of the 7th, supported by inf companies...I am amazed they had any fight left in them after a day and night of constant naval and air battering. Veterans tell of Jabos hunting individual runners. Some runners were even on horseback!

Another great chapter in the book has the radio transcripts from both sides time coordinated and it gives a great picture of how events were unfolding on the day of he invasion.

Another veteran tells of Ost units murdering their German officer and comrades in a neighbouring bunker so as to surrender, but an incensed obergefreiter took retribution in his own hands and grenaded them inside it!

The US 1st and 29th were surely very unlucky to be confronted by a veteran infantry division stationed right on their landing sector, poor guys. It could have been even worse for them if the British 50th division didn't heavily attack westward from their own beachhead and taking a lot of pressure off by hitting the 352nds flank, who in turn counter attacked them to prevent the capture of Bayeux instead of assaulting the US beaches.

Sburke, is there a 352nd campaign available then? I would love to fight that one out whilst reading this book. Will try out that scenario in your sig when I get a chance.

This book alone could create a fascinating array of scenarios!

I had never heard or seen of this book and spotted it by chance in my local library! The only thing it lacks is maps, which often happens in good ww2 books, and I would recommend having a map of the invasion sector whilst reading as its great to cross refer as individual actions and villages are mentioned for the ebb and flow of combat.

[DasMorbo]

Thanks for the recommendation!

Sounds very interesting!

@ John Kettler:

Do you mean Hein Severloh by chance?

He wrote 'WN62' (Wiederstandsnest 62 = Defensive Point 62), a book about his experience as MG42 gunner in a bunker at Omaha Beach and the implications for his further live. He shot 12.000 rounds till 12am on 6th June....

Here is the book: http://www.amazon.de/WN-62-Soldier%C2%92s-Memories-Normandy/dp/3932922239/ref=sr_1_1?s=books-intl-de&ie=UTF8&qid=1369485355&sr=1-1&keywords=hein+severloh

I only know of him because he was on a local tv programm, he lives not far from me. I don't know if he had to do with American tv though.

Best regards

Olf

[Jaeger Jonzo]

Severloh is mentioned a few times in the book, obviously one of the surviving veterans who contributed to it.

Mind you, another bunker mg42 gunner mentions standing in a pile of 15,000 expended rounds! Their entire ammo quota. He put together a clip of the remaining 62 rounds to use in their escape from the bunker with two other comrades.

[sburke]

Sburke, is there a 352nd campaign available then? I would love to fight that one out whilst reading this book. Will try out that scenario in your sig when I get a chance.

This book alone could create a fascinating array of scenarios!

I had never heard or seen of this book and spotted it by chance in my local library! The only thing it lacks is maps, which often happens in good ww2 books, and I would recommend having a map of the invasion sector whilst reading as its great to cross refer as individual actions and villages are mentioned for the ebb and flow of combat.

No, this was a campaign run by Broadsword56 using the St Lo board game as an op layer. I believe in the Hamel Vallee AAR it is discussed how battles were decided upon.

[John Kettler]

JaegerJonzo,

Wooden bullets? Those things can kill and leave nasty wounds when they don't. The Japanese introduced them as an economy measure on Guadalcanal to save on lead, only to have to go back to regular bullets after we responded by cutting the tips off our cartridges, effectively turning them into 3000fps dum dum bullets.

I had no idea the 352nd had or did those things you mentioned. None!

DasMorbo,

No, not him. His claims are hotly disputed, and there's a Wiki on the "Beast of Omaha." The man I'm thinking of was in a pillbox or whatever and was faced with nothing but invasion fleet, then hordes of landing craft, then bow ramps dropping and his real work's beginning.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Jaeger Jonzo]

John, your surprise matches that of the mg gunner when he was given them! At first he refused to carry them until the QM explained the tactic for their use.

Another US infantrymans quote in the book mentions also finding an abandoned mg pit outside Coleville with the wooden ammo in belts.

Apparently these wooden rounds were the German equivalent of blanks and burned off before hitting anything, so not the same as any nasty Japanese invention.

SB, I like the sound of having an op layer for cmbn battles, its something that's just missing for me in my cm battles. The individual battles are great but be nice to know they are affecting a bigger picture, hence why I prefer campaigns over scenarios at the least. I do hope someone develops a campaign/operational layer to this great sim. Some guys were working on using the Panzer Campaigns series in conjunction with cmbn, not sure what's happened to that?

[Michael Emrys]

Apparently these wooden rounds were the German equivalent of blanks and burned off before hitting anything, so not the same as any nasty Japanese invention.

Seems like I read somewhere that they were made to use with rifle grenades. I couldn't tell you why they would have ended up in belts though, unless the MGs had run out of regular ammo and the teams had found a cache of these and belted them up.

Michael

[Jaeger Jonzo]

unless the MGs had run out of regular ammo and the teams had found a cache of these and belted them up.

Michael

Exactly that Micheal, smoke and mirrors I guess. If green troops see several mgs blazing away they are likely to stall. Am sure the Germans wished they had ample real bullets but by days end they were running very low.

The book ably explains the reason for the 352nd running low on ammo. It was on immediate orders to be able to deploy anywhere in France at a moments notice and therefore never had normal stockpiles stored nearby. It's arty batteries were likewise on a 3 round per gun ration by the night of the 6th. Shocking when compared to the might of the fleet and forces arrayed against them!

[Michael Emrys]

The individual battles are great but be nice to know they are affecting a bigger picture...

Except that most of the time the causality went the other direction. The events at the company level were most often determined by decisions made at the battalion, regiment, and division level. CM players tend to be so fixated on duking it out in a "fair" fight that they lose sight on the fact that most of these engagements were anything but fair. And any that were usually represented a case where the attacker was not trying to reach any objective, but was simply demonstrating against a portion of the line to discourage the defender from pulling troops out to reinforce the defense where the real attack was going in. Which is why my personal preference is for operational-level games. That's where the decisive events on the battlefields of WW II usually took place.

Michael

[JonS]

Seems like I read somewhere that they were made to use with rifle grenades.

Yeah, I've seen that, and them being referred to as training ammn. There seems to be a fair bit of confusion about them. Either way, all(?) the references I've seen have been related to Normandy, and only in the first couple of days. And, thinking about it, only on the 716th Inf Div front, from OMAHA in the west all the way across to the 6th A/B zone east of the Orne. A number of British reports talk about them, and assign them evil intent, but I put that down to simple ignorance of what the enemy was up to.

Until something else comes along, I'm assuming they were cheap training ammn, which for whatever reason (Q stuff up most likely, or simply a too-rapid transition from a training exercise to active operations) ended up being what a number of units had to hand when the Allies showed up.

[Michael Emrys]

Shocking when compared to the might of the fleet and forces arrayed against them!

But a good thing for the Americans. The 352nd. did enough damage as it was with what they had.

:eek:

Michael

[Jaeger Jonzo]

Another thing that struck me in the book was just how tough some of the bunkers must have been to hold out until the 7th with all that firepower against them. One radioed back to say it had 6 tanks and a company of infantry stalled before it and had withstood all day.

And yet many of the 352nd were only in wooden fortifications, probably the non survivors of the day.

[Jaeger Jonzo]

Reading further, it seems some of the bunkers on Omaha beach were still in German hands on the 8th June! They had lost radio contact but were on orders to fight and harass the landings and re supply until they ran out of ammunition.

What's more amazing, the 352nd did not switch from offensive to defensive mode until the night of the 8th. By then they had suffered 2000 casualties and for the most part had not slept or eaten since the night of the 5th. Those young grenadiers had amazing endurance.

The 352nd also captured 2 full sets of operational orders for the US V corps within 24 hours and were able to deploy certain units to known axis of advance of the allied units and know inter divisional boundaries etc.

open radio intercepts often forewarned them when a certain village or woods was about to be attacked from air or arty and they would quickly evacuate and then move back in once the attack was over.

The arty reg was firing over open sights at British armour and the Stug Btn was down to 6 stugs that accounted for 40 enemy Afvs on the 8th, 15 of them tanks, the rest armoured cars and half tracks.

[JonS]

Be careful treating claims as facts

[Jaeger Jonzo]

Be careful treating claims as facts

Understand what you are saying Jon. But what I would say, is that the book in no way gives off a vibe of glory or gloating, more of a severely pressed and brow beaten formation operating as best they could under extreme circumstances and counting themselves very lucky to be alive at the end of each encounter. It doesn't shirk at mention of any individual units failing in their actions or having to retreat etc. and the vets accounts appear very honest and frank.

Also, The two incidents of captured orders are explained and seem quite realistic situations to me.

The lads look so young in the photos, baby faced 17yr olds but backed up by a large quota of experienced Ost front nco's and officers.

[Jaeger Jonzo]

As an aside, has anyone read 'Lions of Carentan' about the 6th FJ Regt.? Looked an interesting read and may get it sometime in the future.

I like reading books from both sides to fill in the picture.

[JonS]

Understand what you are saying Jon. But what I would say, is that the book in no way gives off a vibe of glory or gloating

No, I get that. But you still can't treat claims as facts (except in the meta sense ). Even with the best will in the world by the original authors, you simply should not accept that "6 StuGs that accounted for 40 enemy AFVs on the 8th" without some independent corroboration. I'm sure the StuGs were in a battle, and I'm sure they shot at and destroyed some vehicles, but quantities and types?

Also, the two incidents of captured orders are explained and seem quite realistic situations to me.

Actually, I wasn't thinking of that when I made the comment. Even so, even that claim should be treated with caution. I have little doubt that some orders were captured, but you have need to be really aware of Kettlerian "analysis" that can easily puff something quite minor into something way more dramatic. A case in point is the MARKET GARDEN orders retrieved by the Germans from a crashed glider. The glider really crashed, and there really were orders in it, the Germans really did retrieve them, and they really shouldn't have been there, and it really would have been better if they'd been left in England. But the orders captured weren't all encompassing, which is the way they're often portrayed.

To be honest, I doubt there ever was such a thing as "full sets of operational orders for the US V corps" ... what does that even mean? Do you have any idea just how big that document would be?

The slack radio discipline, on the other hand, I can readily believe.

random thought: survivor bias

haven't read it, but heard bad things about Lions of C

[Jaeger Jonzo]

Agree with most of that

One set of orders was allegedly found on a smashed beach masters boat that drifted in near the shore on the tide. Other set was a briefcase handcuffed to an American officer killed in a German counterattack to retake a village (think it was Coleville,which changed hands several times).

Apparently both sets of orders were forwarded on to higher HQ and were initially dismissed as a ruse. However general Kraiss of 352nd took copies of useful docs before he sent them on and used them for his own deployments to (alleged) great effect.

The docs contained operational objective targets and timescales, divisional boundaries & reinforcement/resupply timetables from what I can gather.

I'm just relating what's in the book, people can make their own minds up on its authenticity or intention. Good book though

[Michael Emrys]

Understand what you are saying Jon. But what I would say, is that the book in no way gives off a vibe of glory or gloating...and the vets accounts appear very honest and frank.

Further to what Jon replied, soldiers reporting within the chaos of war, even with perfect sincerity and carefully screened by intel experts still tend to overclaim by generous margins. One example that I am familiar with is fighter pilots. In virtually every air force in the war, their claims are almost always double what the enemy actually lost, and that's after careful screening and reduction of initial claims. The Japanese were worse, with claims exceeding reality by a margin of 5-10:1. Whenever possible, claims should be compared to the reported losses by the other side.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

One set of orders was allegedly found on a smashed beach masters boat that drifted in near the shore on the tide. Other set was a briefcase handcuffed to an American officer killed in a German counterattack to retake a village (think it was Coleville,which changed hands several times).

Would either of those have likely extended past the first 48 hours? In any event, even if they had projected anticipated actions further into the future, would the situation on the ground have still corresponded to those projections? "Plans never survive first contact with the enemy." In any event, would they have revealed much of value that a competent commander would not deduce just by looking at a map?

Michael