Isn't this unusual?

[para]

Whilst waiting for Market Garden to make an appearance, i have started reading some books. I am in the middle of Pegasus Bridge by Ambrose. Anyway, one thing i have found really interesting is the fact that the Ox's and Bucks had two black soldiers on mission.

This is mentioned during the preparation for loading the men on the horsa's as the men blacken their faces. The charcoal is offered to one of these chaps who says something like ''why would i need that?''

I mention this because, isn't this highly unusual to have two black soldiers in an elite volunteer company in WW2?

Anybody know anything more about these two chaps?

[Seedorf81]

Never heard of it, but IMHO the Brits have never have been as racist a nation as the United States (curiously enough, considering the USA thought itself the bastion of democracy and freedom). They - the British - used colored colonials as soldiers (Indians, Ghurka's, Bhurmese ) for a long time

Could it be those "black" men were from the West-Indies perhaps? And could it be that there were "black men" serving in regular divisions?

(In those days anyone with a tinted skin was considered "black".)

[para]

Never heard of it, but IMHO the Brits have never have been as racist a nation as the United States (curiously enough, considering the USA thought itself the bastion of democracy and freedom). They - the British - used colored colonials as soldiers (Indians, Ghurka's, Bhurmese ) for a long time

Could it be those "black" men were from the West-Indies perhaps? And could it be that there were "black men" serving in regular divisions?

(In those days anyone with a tinted skin was considered "black".)

As far as i know and i am sure someone with more knowledge will put me right. The colonials were usually together under the leadership of British officers. I have never heard of one, two or more colored soldiers serving in a predominately white company.

What is more interesting is that these two guys were in an elite volunteer formation and taking part in Operation Deadstick. I would love to know more about these two fellas.

[JonS]

2nd Oxf Bucks weren't volunteers. Originally the unit was a regular line infantry unit, which got selected in 1941 to be re-roled as an air landing battalion. IIRC, only the units in 1st A/B Bde were truly volunteer. Most of the rest of the British airborne forces (engineers, artillery, parachute, air landing, loggy, etc) were conscripts serving where the big green machine dumped them. The only exceptions I can think of would be the Glider Pilot Regiment, and the independent companys (the Pathfinders) ... but even those were mostly 'internal' volunteers - they'd already been dumped in the airborne forces, then from there volunteered for GPR or Pathfinders.

[Michael Emrys]

They - the British - used colored colonials as soldiers (Indians, Ghurka's, Bhurmese ) for a long time

There were also battalions and brigades of black soldiers from East and West Africa (Kenya, Uganda, etc.). Since these men were native to tropical regions, they were used in Burma and other tropical climes.

Michael

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Most likely these were British born blacks or at least resident at the time of call up as typically I would expected colonial soldiers to remain in ditto units.

Being a naval trading nation Britain accumulated a moderately sized black community. I think Liverpool was noted as having a good sized one but presumably other coastal towns would have had their share.

So other then being blacks in Britain prior to the post-ww2 mass migration, I doubt these guys were anything unusual.

[Wodin]

Saw a mixed race soldier photo in the British Army from WW1 the other day..Infact if you search you will find the British and Commonwealth armies from both WW1 and WW2 had numerous mixed race and black soldiers within the regiments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Tull

Americans in WW2 still had segregation..Britain wasn't anything like that.

Oh and Ambrose isn't the greatest author and is very pro American and dismissive of the other allied forces..I'd read the classic Bridge to Far by C Ryan and from the German view only "It never snows in September by Kershaw" (though i did find it hard work compared to his East front book War without Garlands)

[Wodin]

Keegan = Ryan?

Call me stupid..sorry

Gone to edit..haven't slept all night

[tuhhodge]

I found 'It never snows in September' hard work. Well written, but terribly depressing reading from the point of view of a Brit or American and makes the Germans look like heroes. I'm all for redressing the literary balance (victors write history and all that) but...

'A bridge too far' is excellent reading. Ambrose's book on Arnhem and his book on D-Day are both ok.

[Wodin]

I found 'It never snows in September' hard work.

Me too..I read War without Garlands first and was disappointed with It never snows..not a bad book but didn't grab me like War without Garlands did.

[verulam]

Quite a few West Indian Airmen served as aircrew in Bomber Command.

[Michael Emrys]

Me too..I read War without Garlands first and was disappointed with It never snows..not a bad book but didn't grab me like War without Garlands did.

Yeah, exactly the same here. I found that War Without Garlands really hit the spot for me. When I picked up It Never Snows in September I was shocked. It was as if it had been written by a completely different author. I had to do a bit of research to convince myself that they were both by the same guy.

Michael

[Blackcat]

"The colonials were usually together under the leadership of British officers."

Mr. Para,

That was true for regiments raised from the colonies, though the British Officers bit was not quite as straightforward as you seem to suggest.

However, every UK national was subject to call up regardless of their skin colour and HM Forces never operated a segregation policy. So it was normal to find "men of colour" in regular army units. There wasn't a big proportion of non-white soldiers because there wasn't a big proportion of non-whites in the UK, but pro-rata they were there serving alongside their ethnically white comrades. During the Italy campaign my step-father in the RE had as his oppo a black chap from Cardiff, who was killed when his carrier ran over a landmine.

[para]

"The colonials were usually together under the leadership of British officers."

Mr. Para,

That was true for regiments raised from the colonies, though the British Officers bit was not quite as straightforward as you seem to suggest.

However, every UK national was subject to call up regardless of their skin colour and HM Forces never operated a segregation policy. So it was normal to find "men of colour" in regular army units. There wasn't a big proportion of non-white soldiers because there wasn't a big proportion of non-whites in the UK, but pro-rata they were there serving alongside their ethnically white comrades. During the Italy campaign my step-father in the RE had as his oppo a black chap from Cardiff, who was killed when his carrier ran over a landmine.

Cheers Blackcat, i find this to be really quite pleasing. I do remember watching a programme about Trafalgar in which many black sailors(they are immortalised on Nelsons column) fought for the RN. However, it did state that after that, the RN did start to operate a whites only policy.