Tank immobilized by hand grenades | Realistic?

[Childress]

After a rigorous five minute search, I managed to find a few individuals who took out tanks singlehandedly without using a Bazooka.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Destruction_Badge

I checked out the Wikipedia page. Curiously, for such a hazardous job, almost every one of the Badge recipients was long lived. Except for the unlucky Eugène Vaulot who was felled by a Russian sniper a week before the armistice.

[Quintus Sertorius]

I have an anecdote that maybe fits in this thread.

I was playing the scenario Linking Up & Breaking Out as the Germans. The battle was winding down when I ambushed a Cromwell on the north-south street north of the main east-west road. It's an area pretty bad for a tank, because it's mostly surrounded by houses.

The first part of the ambush was a Jagdpanzer IV, which was hiding around a corner when the Cromwell came into view. The Cromwell survived 2 front armor penetrations from the 75mm gun on the IV, both at a range of about 30-40 meters. The Cromwell then returned fire with its main gun. After 3 hits, it damaged the IV's main gun, and the IV retreated out of LOS.

While this was going on, two separate panzerschreck teams were firing at the Cromwell, one from the rear quadrant, and one from the right quadrant (of the Cromwell). The tank was quickly immobilized, but survived a total of 5 panzerschreck hits to various areas. It had swung its turret around to fire at the right quadrant team when the rear quadrant team knocked it out with a sixth rocket.

Probably my favorite incident so far from CMBN.

[John Kettler]

Quintus Sertorius,

A Cromwell? Two (2) point blank 75mm armor penetrations? Five (5) Panzerschreck hits? Really? Amazing! The kind of thing I might expect in fighting a Churchill.

Regards,

John Kettler

[womble]

Quintus Sertorius,

A Cromwell? Two (2) point blank 75mm armor penetrations? Five (5) Panzerschreck hits? Really? Amazing! The kind of thing I might expect in fighting a Churchill.

Regards,

John Kettler

I think the Cromwell crew were just lucky, lucky barstewards. Definitely an outlier result!

[LUCASWILLEN05]

There were speciallydesigned Anti tank grenades. There are a number of problems infantry have. Firstly they have to ge lose enough to use grenades without getting killed. Easier said than done at times. Then they have to kill the tank. Might be easier if they first manage to immobalise it. But still risky particularly if it is not already isolated from supports.

[Baneman]

... There are a number of problems infantry have. Firstly they have to ge lose enough to use grenades without getting killed. Easier said than done at times. Then they have to kill the tank. ...

and then they have to survive the crew who boil out of it, mad as snakes and twice as deadly

[LUCASWILLEN05]

And the crew have to survive being gunned down as they bail out!

[JasonC]

ASL Vet - your problem is that the TDB was for destruction of tanks with bazookas. It did not remotely exclude them, as they are hand held weapons. It excludes only towed PAK weapons, all infantry AT was eligible.

The Germans issued millions of panzerfausts and hundreds of thousands of panzershrecks (with over a million rounds for them), both weapons like the bazooka. They awarded about 20k badges, whole war. Some portion of them undoubtedly using AT weapons earlier than those (AT grenades, grenade bundles, demo charges undoubtedly the most common) but much less effective; allied side reports show the portion of tanks lost to infantry AT soaring late war.

[Apocal]

I actually couldn't find a report of a tank being immobilized by hand-held AT for CMBN's period and region, which is why I used a Russian account instead. Admittedly, I didn't exactly try hard, since the east front account was *right there*.

v0v

[dieseltaylor]

Incorrect I am afraid. The translation is a little rubbish but the award was extended in December 1943 to include bazooka type. It may also be that you had to nail more than one ...

JasonC

ASL Vet - your problem is that the TDB was for destruction of tanks with bazookas. It did not remotely exclude them, as they are hand held weapons. It excludes only towed PAK weapons, all infantry AT was eligible.

Notice of the high command of the Army of 9 March 1942:

"... The leaders approved the introduction of a special badge for the battles of low Panzerkampfwagen by lone ....

2 The special badge is awarded to soldiers from 22 June 1941 as a single fighter with

Melee weapons or melee agents (anti-tank rifle, rifle grenade, concentrated load, etc.)

an enemy armored car or other enemy armored vehicle

Melee have destroyed or incapacitated.

3 The badge comprises a ribbon of aluminum web of about 90 mm length and 32 mm

Beam with two knitted-black stripes (3 mm wide) to the punched sheet metal

Silhouette of an armored car mounted in black.

4 On re awarding another sleeve insignia will be created. "1

Notice of the high command of the Army of 18 December 1943:

"The special badge on golden ribbon is awarded after the fifth, etc. eligible low struggles of armored car instead of another special silver badge. Before the badges are awarded four silver and then pass the relevant soldiers remain in memory." 1

The destruction of a tank than assault could be counted for the purposes of (general) Storm badge. Often the soldiers in question was for "personal courage and bravery" the Iron Cross, Second or First Class verliehen.2

From a decision of 18 December 1943 allowed the "tank destruction badge" * are also awarded to soldiers who had a tank with missile destroyed 43 anti-tank rifle (so-called "stovepipe" or "Panzerschreck") or a "bazooka".

[John Kettler]

dieseltaylor,

The translation's a bit off: "for the battles of low (individual, lone?) panzerkampfwagen..." The larger point, with which I agree, is that award of the TDB prior to the intro date for the Panzerschreck, must've been for the prior weapons listed. Award citations would be even better, could we get them. Concentrated load is, of course, the Geballte Ladung or bundle charge AKA one handle; seven grenades!

Sometimes, I get lucky. Really lucky. JasonC, prepare to be refuted!

Take a look at A. Peichl and others in THE FACE OF COURAGE: The 98 Men Who Received The Knight's Cross...

http://tinyurl.com/bsxhovx

Peichl had 11 TDBs. The author of that book, Florian Berger, scrutinizes some of the TDB claims and concludes Peichl's were legit; other high claims he rips apart. The quote at the beginning of the Piechl piece is an attention getter.

On page 56, we read of Friederich Buck, who destroyed several tanks with Teller mines and hand grenades. Page 353. Captain Emil Moller got a T-34 with a Teller mine.

Clearly, the TDBs were awarded for using exactly the kind of up close and personal weapons CMBN reflects in the Close Assault order. Further, there were many soldiers who killed tanks in close combat, but received neither the Knight's Cross nor the Gold Combat Clasp. Therefore, the frequency of such successful assaults is almost certainly understated.

Update: I have now found a 72 page Panzerknacker (Panzer Destroyer) thread on Axis History Forum. A splendid find, but unfortunately, the dates of the actions aren't listed, making it hard to deduce the weapons used. Still, as comprehensive a list of TDB awardees as we're ever likely to have!

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11964

There are a few dated pics, but not many. Now, if some wonderful person would be kind enough to track down every name listed, then we might learn something!

On page 14 of the above thread, no less than six tank kills are listed as having occurred in 1941 in 1 Battalion/ Infantry Regiment 186. shall NOT be accepting Panzerfaust or Panzerschreck based refutations.

(Fair Use)

on a document of I Btl/Inf Regt 186 dated 1 Nov 42 awards for

Fw Fritz Gerstl of 3Kp for 1 destroyed 6 Sep 41

Uffz Michael Kühner of 2 Kp for 1 destroyed 25 Sep 41

Ogefr Wilh Schmidt of 2 Kp for 2 destroyed 25.9.41

Ogefr Kurt Stenzel of 3Kp for 1 destroyed 6 Sep 41

Gefr Johann Haderer of 2 Kp for 1 destroyed 25 Sep 41.

(Fair Use)

Page 27, Ibid.

(Fair Use)

SS Hauptscharfuhrer Adolf Sellmeier destroyed 2 T 34's on 12/8/1943 using hollow charges. He served with 13/ SS Pz Gren Rgt 2, LSSAH.

(Fair Use)

Page 30, Ibid.

(Fair use)

Konrad Schirmer became his Ritterkreuz for an attack near Charkov in the end of June 1942. During this attack he destroyed 3 russian tanks with hand grenades. Only some weeks later he died at 5.August 1942.

(Fair use)

Page 32, Ibid.

Ogefr. Ewald Jannes (Pz.Gren.Rgt.28, RKT) - 3 PVAiS,

Ogefr. Kurt Schwarm (Pz.Gren.Rgt.98, RKT) - 2 PVAiS,

Lt. Eberhard Schlepple (Krad.Btl.8, later RKT in 26.Pz.Div.) - 2 PVAiS on 15 October 1942,

Ofw. Braun (Pz.Jag.Abt.38) - 3 PVAiS

All names except for the last one (Strauß: Friedens- und Kriegserlebnisse einer Generation) come from Kindel: Die 8.Panzer-Division. 1938-1945.

(Fair Use)

I believe I'll stop now. Okay. I won't. That same thread also lists awards for magnetic antitank mines, Geballte Ladung and petrol bottles, among others.

Regards,

John Kettler