Real frontlines

[Kuniworth]

I believe there are two major flaws with the sc2-game that seriously effects gameplay. It is something that need to be adresses to get that real "ww2 feel".

First of all tiles with diagonal movement makes map unproportional. I've been starring at the barbarossa map and distances seem so far off, Warsaw to Moscow etc. And it's because of diagonal movement that stretches the map. With hexes this will be adressed and maps will become more correct with distances.

The second manor flaw got to do with game mechanics. With the sc2 and sc1 engine units move and then strike or vice versa. However there are no possiblity to move, attack and then move again. That makes it very effective to put "speed-bumps" in front of strong units to slow their movement. For instance a panzer corps out to capture a city only defende by a weak garrison can't move, brush enemy aside and then occupy city. The only way the panzer corps could capture the city would be if it started next to the garrision, destroyed it and then moved in.

I'd very much would like if in sc3 units had a number of action points they could spend on either attack or movement, or perhaps the ability to move some of your action points, strike and then move again.

That would also mean that units sholud always retreat after taking a certain amount of casualties. Say a 10-strength corps would retreat when losing 3 points, exception to this would be in cities or perhaps the option to tell units to stand fast at all cost.

As it now stands the current game engine forces this huge groups of units moving like a swarm of grasshoppers from one prey to the next. It would be better if we had a more spread out front line.

[Big Al]

While you are right, it doesn't have that "ww2 feel" there are system in place to simulate as best possible what you are looking for. Hindsight and playability makes games like these impossible to follow history. if the Allies and the Germans had hindsight the Axis would lose far sooner all the time.

Map - Yes the map looks long - But the map is isometric, as are all SC games, so the map will be longer than taller.

Game mechanics - You are correct in your assessment but there is a balance between gameplay and what is possible. Technically armor units should have many moves and attacks. But that would be tedious. What is there is a compromise of both worlds, realism and playability.

Retreats - you are correct, it is something we are working on. A retreat system improvement is in there where units retreat once they are at 5 strength or less AND have zero entrenchment. Also the retreat is calculated after they take damage. for cities I think its 25% retreat. I might be off on the numbers but you get the idea. So this simulates retreat after X casualties and brings more of a moving front. You will find AoC and AoD use this real effectively. There are moving fronts and defensive positions with multiple units. There are also speed bump situation.

Hubert and I have done a lot of work on these 2 games and preparing for SC3. Keep in mind what is realistic might not be whats easy to put in a game to keep the fun in it.

Matrix's War in the Pacific is excruciatingly detailed. I refuse to play it because of its over complexity. Just as I refused to play War in Europe which is a division level board game by Decision Games. I owned it and sold it. Europa? Hell no.

So there is always a balance.

I really tried to change the model some to present something new and fresh. I think you will be happy with the product. Of course I can't please everyone.

[Ivanov]

I think that movement after the attack of the mechanized units, that didn't spent all their action points, is a very good idea, worth considering and testing for the SC3

[SeaMonkey]

Well it's always good to rehash these old dilemmas of the SC features and I'm sure we'll see some adjustments in the SC3 engine, but I've kind of grown accustomed to the tile orientation and it does work extremely well in my viewpoint.

Big Al always makes a good point about realism vs playability, there's always a trade off and if we can keep the "abstract" portion of our minds stimulated we can always rationalize one over the other. We know, SC is becoming more complex and requires more player interaction, not so difficult for us veterans, but the new guys and the AI won't flourish if we don't make good decisions on "feature creep", although some will be attracted to the additional complexity.

So..... with all that hot air(albeit old), I'm going to add some to the balloon, how about(for SC3) we can click off the unit and come back to it to finish the remaining APs.

[Kuniworth]

Great answer Al. It feels good that you are looking at retreats, that is very good news and it looks like you and Hubert will get it right.

[SeaMonkey]

An interesting thought, perhaps the affinity for a unit to retreat should be coupled to the nation's NM level and possibly its degree of experience. Now I know many units, especially German and Japanese fought with sheer determination in defense of their countries towards the end of the war(maybe not always the smartest thing). Still, you cannot discount that the general feeling of well being about one's armed forces would not work into the thought patterns of its soldiers.

Some countries fold up earlier than others. There could be events that change the relative strength level a unit retreats one, two tiles/hexes, or possibly 3 representing a rout of the personnel.

[Big Al]

An interesting thought, perhaps the affinity for a unit to retreat should be coupled to the nation's NM level and possibly its degree of experience. Now I know many units, especially German and Japanese fought with sheer determination in defense of their countries towards the end of the war(maybe not always the smartest thing). Still, you cannot discount that the general feeling of well being about one's armed forces would not work into the thought patterns of its soldiers.

Some countries fold up earlier than others. There could be events that change the relative strength level a unit retreats one, two tiles/hexes, or possibly 3 representing a rout of the personnel.

Do you want to drive me insane with over complication?

[mcaryf1]

I might have to think again given the scale in the two new maps but personally I do not like the idea of any retreat in the old scale of SC and I switch the facility off. A unit that falls back 60 miles or so might as well be regarded as destroyed. I allow fairly widespread rebuilding of units which I think is a more accurate representation of what would have happened. You also find that some retreats are outrageous as the retreating unit ends up in a position to capture useful terrain after some apparently random choice about the direction of retreat.

I cannot agree with the idea of a unit retreating 2 or even 3 hexes - that has to be a rebuild.

Regards

Mike

[SeaMonkey]

Sorry Big Al, perhaps a little extreme, but it would make for a fluid front and Mike, the scale per tile/hex is variable subject to the designer.

We would never see a North African campaign that would have units retreat a couple hundred miles over a two week period....banish the thought!

[Big Al]

It is done because it is a 1 unit per hex game mainly and too many units were "blowing up". Units can't retreat over others. With 1 hex retreat you can retreat one unit and pin the other down to where it cant retreat.

[SeaMonkey]

Ahhh, I see, seems someone needs to code a "pass-through" feature. So...are you coding for SC or are you just scenario designing?

[Big Al]

Hubert is the programmer, I just designed the scenarios for AoC/AoD.... WaW is also mostly Hubert's version. I am helping with it though. Extra decision events, special A.I. scripting, graphics, and a new units the Maritime Patrol (ASW plane) which will replace the Airship.

[mcaryf1]

Hi SeaMonkey

The North African campaign had lots of movement but there is a distinction between retreating in game terms and withdrawing. I would argue that Rommel chose to withdraw his mobile units when he knew the battle of Alamein was lost and effectively abandonned his Italian infantry - thus in SC terms it was his turn and he withdrew. If your suggested retreat option had been in effect then the Italian infantry might well have retreated back 2 or 3 squares during the Allied turn and blocked to road for the mobile units.

My main objection to the retreat option as I experienced it in SC Gold was that some retreat movements on occasion seemed more like advances to me. It is of a piece with the game allowing units to wander about without supply for considerable periods of time which I also do not much like. Most wargames I have experienced start to attrit the strength of out of supply units until they eventually disappear and I think that would be a better approach.

I should confirm, however, that I do still regard SC as an outstanding wargame series but not quite perfect!

Regards

Mike

[SeaMonkey]

Easy to comprehend your concern Mike, we're in agreement, "outstanding, but not quite perfect", that's why we'll continue to work to make it so!

[Hubert Cater]

Ahhh, I see, seems someone needs to code a "pass-through" feature. So...are you coding for SC or are you just scenario designing?

I thought I'd try and clarify this, the problem with the East Front campaign, and remember the scale and number of units is a bit different from previous releases, is that as Al mentioned you often get front lines where they are two units deep on each side.

So if the Soviet front line is two units deep and the retreat is only a single tile, the Soviet unit cannot retreat at all and is simply destroyed.

By Al setting it to two tiles, it doesn't mean that units retreat two tiles every time, it simply allows for exactly what you mentioned, a "pass through" of at least one friendly unit so that it can retreat to a friendly tile when the lines get very crowded.

It works well for this particular campaign and for others where only 1 retreat range is more applicable we've left it at that.

Hopefully that clarifies things a bit

Hubert

[SeaMonkey]

Excellent, thanks Hubert. Any possibility of a 3 hex/tile setting, SC3 / AoD?

[Big Al]

Its a variable, you can set to whatever you want. With 1 hex units were just blowing up and it was a tank trading war. It played more like Third Reich (3R) than SC2. 3R is unforgiving of mistakes.

The strategy for AoC is very deep without the over complication of War in the East by Matrix. That's where the jewel is.