Spotting without being spotted?

[Imperial Sardaukar]

Just doing the 3rd tutorial mission now (Battle Drill), and I wonder if there is a way to spot the enemy without being spotted in return? Would love to be able to send MG and mortar fire downrange without my guys getting shot at.

Also, while sending my assault guys to Raleigh Woods, they encounter 3 groups of enemies, one group at a time. I send them (3 groups plus HQ) to move forward under Hunt orders and once contact is made, I have the other free units Assault the flanks while one or two units engage the enemy and keep him busy. Is this a good tactic? Reading the manual, it did not say anything about expecting resistance on the forested areas, but I guess such is the nature of war -- you never know where the enemy is.

I've finished this mission twice now, best performance was a win with only 4 kills and 3 wounded on my side.... or was it 3 kills and 4 wounded? Anyway, would love to be a bit more efficient on this basic tutorial mission before I move on.

[fry30]

Your tactics appear sound. I'd say start beating up on the Computer via perhaps Quick Battle (with infantry vs infantry or perhaps mech v mech. Force selections are screwy when you start including armor.)

Once you are better at that, take on some of the harder scenarios and operations.

The only thing left to do after that is to start finding PBEM games online! (Or RT if you are lucky and know how to use Hamachi at that point!)

[Faelwolf]

Movement attracts attention almost as fast as opening fire. Some ideas:

Use the terrain to your advantage, for example don't move along a hedgerow right at the hedgerow, pull your men back a bit, then move them, so that the hedge blocks the enemy's view of them more completely.

Look for dead space for larger troop movements, like behind a hill or woods, sometimes these areas can be quite large, and an entire Company can move in them without being spotted.

Don't rush up to the crest of a hill, or the edge of a woods, etc. Stop short, and make your movement order for the last action square or two as a slow movement to lessen the likelihood of them being spotted. Be sure to set small target arcs for units like forward observers, scouts, etc so they don't open fire and give away their position. You can also do this for fire teams and mortars, so they don't fire until they are fully deployed, then cancel the arc and let 'em have it!.

The hunt command can be useful. But you can also move in shorter movements, with a pause command for 10 seconds or so to give your troops time to observe and possibly spot the enemy better. With a bit of practice, you can set the timing to have teams "leapfrog" into position so that half of them are observing while the other half moves.

When plotting a movement, use the target command to check your lines of fire at the new way-point before committing to it. This can also be used to give you an idea of how visible you may be to the enemy but don't take it as a certainty, sometimes the enemy can see you better than you can see them. This can also help find hull-down positions for your tanks to help protect them from return fire, as well.

As a last thought, if you haven't watched the Armchair General series of vids on YouTube yet, I recommend them highly. They cover what I just wrote in more detail, and have a lot of other very useful things as well. They are also very entertaining to watch.

[agusto]

Use the microterrain to you advantage. An actionspot that has foliage in it will reduce the probability of beeing spotted yourself.

Also, try to make contact with the smallest force possible (scout team). Then develop the situation (manuever) in a way you can engage few enemys with many of your own forces. What you did (have a some groupes of your force surpress the enemy and move another one around their flanks) is a good idea in general. Note that this approach can also be used for larger formations, like platoons or even companys.

The movmement to contact you have described however (adavancing in a line using the 'hunt' command) only appears to be meaningful in terrain with low visibility, such as woods.

And as Faelwolf did already recommend, watch these:

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/combat-mission-battle-for-normandy-tactics-a-video-series

[Erwin]

Certain units in CM2 (certainly CMSF) are able to spot further from exactly the same position as other units though terrain.

FO's and HQ's for sure can see further (approx 5-10m), and IIRC the same is true for mortars and snipers. Not sure about recon units.

So, (unless this has been changed in CMBN and CMFI and am sure someone will tell us) if you are on a recon mission, it is useful to have these units along just for their magical capabilities.

[agusto]

So, (unless this has been changed in CMBN and CMFI and am sure someone will tell us) if you are on a recon mission, it is useful to have these units along just for their magical capabilities.

I think the magical capabilities of the units you mentioned come from them beeing equipped with binoculars and magnifying rifle scopes.

[Faelwolf]

I think the magical capabilities of the units you mentioned come from them beeing equipped with binoculars and magnifying rifle scopes.

Witchcraft!

[Erwin]

agusto: All the units had binoculars, I made certain of that. I didn't have snipers/sharpshooters in my situation, so no scopes. I am actually not quite as dumb as you assume lol.

It's easy to experiment for heaven's sake. Just put several units (eg: mortars, FO's, HQ's and regular inf with binocs) in the same spot and see how far each can see (in the same direction) through a field.

It's rather important re doing recon and spotting (and firing on enemy units) since the advantage of the units I mentioned in my test gave them about 5-10 meters extra LOS through a field.

[womble]

It's easy to experiment for heaven's sake. Just put several units (eg: mortars, FO's, HQ's and regular inf with binocs) in the same spot and see how far each can see (in the same direction) through a field.

How are you determining "how far each can see"? If you're using the "Target" tool, you'll get misleading results, because mortars, at least, can target a bit further than they can see. So just because the line ends in a reticle doesn't mean the unit can actually see something at its end point.

[$Pec5]

To spot without being spotted, I plot a movement point a couple action squares off of a hedgerow and then slow move the spotter the remaining distance up to the edge of the hedgerow. I also give him a small cover arc so he doesn't reveal his position by taking pot shots at the enemy.

[Erwin]

womble, the LOS issue is also true for FO's and HQ's (and I think snipers) etc. When in the same spot, they can definitely TARGET further than regular troops (all with binocs). Since there is no actual "line of sight" command like there was for CM1, we're talking semantics.

And like I said, anyone can easily test this for themselves if they care about the issue.

[akd]

womble, the LOS issue is also true for FO's and HQ's (and I think snipers) etc. When in the same spot, they can definitely TARGET further than regular troops (all with binocs). Since there is no actual "line of sight" command like there was for CM1, we're talking semantics.

And like I said, anyone can easily test this for themselves if they care about the issue.

*sigh*

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=107283&highlight=spotting+posture

[womble]

womble, the LOS issue is also true for FO's and HQ's (and I think snipers) etc. When in the same spot, they can definitely TARGET further than regular troops (all with binocs). Since there is no actual "line of sight" command like there was for CM1, we're talking semantics.

No, we're disucssing the information the interface can give you, and how you can elicit and deduce the limits of that information using the tools available. Since FOs and HQs can also target (artillery strikes) slightly out of LOS, I'm prepared to consider that the LOS/Target tool will reflect that. You still haven't provided any evidence that they can actually spot anything further into concealment than any other bino-equipped unit.

All I'm saying is that you don't know all the parameters of what controls the LOS/noLOS decision of the target tool, so using it to claim enhanced concealment penetration capabilities is methodologically questionable.

[MG TOW]

Its great when forward observers can remain hidden, call in a full area target and not be discovered. the Hide command works for this, provided the FO team are in bushes or tall grass. Their relative view is not obstructed, because a Hide command causes the team to go to ground. Unfortunately if they are behind a wall they will be obstructed if hiding.

[Imperial Sardaukar]

Thanks for the advice guys! While some posts were more about "general missions" and bocage "tactics," I was referring more to the situation in the training scenario. A bocage is a great LOS-blocker so I'm not too worried about that, but in the training scenario, I am moving my troops through a forested area so that is obviously a different "terrain" picture altogether.

Faelwolf mentioned checking LOS/line of fire, how do I do this?

Re: Armchair general - yes, I am watching his vids but some are too "over my head" at the moment so I probably don't register all the info given.

[womble]

Faelwolf mentioned checking LOS/line of fire, how do I do this?

You can select any waypoint by clicking on it or on the line leading to it. It and the line will both brighten and get bigger.

Once you've selected a waypoint, you can use a "Target" command to see what the unit could see (within certain approximations) from that point.

An important restriction to remember here is that the test is from the height that the unit's eyes are at when you check, so if they're shown kneeling, you'll be looking from the "future" waypoint from kneeling height, and too ground level at the point you're looking at.

While the line drawn is coming from the current location of the unit, vision is being assessed from the waypoint you've got selected, and if you actually set a target, the "firing" line will originate from the waypoint you're interested in.

One way you can use this is to get an idea of where "hull down" is. First select the unit at its current point and use the target tool to look past the brow you want to hide behind. Where it changes colour is probably somewhere near the crest. Then plot a move to a little way before that point, and several subsequent waypoints leading up to and past that point. Select each waypoint in turn and see whether you can get a target on a distant point that might be a threat. It should say "spotter hull down" or "spotter partial hull down" when you choose the waypoint that's at the right point for you to be hull down wrt the distant point you're interested in.

With v2 you can do the same but by dragging one waypoint about. It's easier, because you can plonk a waypoint somewere that you definitely can get LOS to where you're interested, then drag the waypoint about and see where the line intersects things, and retesting is easier and more consistent.

[Sublime]

I think the Soviet idea on armor movement is sound - flow like water. Try to get into dips and low spots. With really any Allied armor you want to use numbers and speed. Try to time attacks so more than two tanks or vehicles if possible engage ANY enemy tank or vehicle. You want to attack for a turn or two, then withdraw, if possible blowing smoke. Withdraw and reenter the fray from another point. Or you can try to withdraw piece by piece over a turn or two and let the enemy choose whether to follow and blunder into an ambush. If you do this right you can run, get out of LoS briefly, and then take advantage of surprise to open up on the advancing enemy. You want to be careful sitting and fighting in one position too long, it gives time for a reaction -whether its tanks, infantry, artillery, whatever.

If you're using German stand off armor (i.e. any turretless AFV like a Stug, Jagdpanther, Tigers, KTs, and even Panthers) and then you want to add distance and if possible put solid things to block portions of LoS. This makes a 'keyhole' or lane for your tank to show its strongest armor and use its better optics and gun to advantage.

With LoS and 'solid' objects I mean hills, heavy hedgerows, thick woods, and buildings. Buildings in towns remember will have 'windows' the enemy can see through.

If you don't want to be spotted set covered arcs. Do NOT make them too small or your men will get butchered if they run into the enemy. And as said, when in view of the enemy if you run you will be spotted. Timing becomes important the closer you get. You can get away with crawling and not being seen, but of course theres a chance and if the enemy stumbles upon your crawling troops they can be gunned down mercilessly. You also want to be very careful with crawling, your men will tire very quickly from it.

[Erwin]

I have been experimenting with this phenomenon multiple times in a scenario and certain units definitely can see/target whatever you want to call it further (through fields etc.) than regular inf equipped with binocs.

I encourage anyone who is interested to simply TRY it for empirical evidence. If you don't care, then, don't. Saves a lot of hot air.

[akd]

I have been experimenting with this phenomenon multiple times in a scenario and certain units definitely can see/target whatever you want to call it further (through fields etc.) than regular inf equipped with binocs.

I encourage anyone who is interested to simply TRY it for empirical evidence. If you don't care, then, don't. Saves a lot of hot air.

As noted in the other thread, I tried to reproduce and could not. Obviously I cared enough then. Please provide a link to a save/scenario.

[agusto]

While some posts were more about "general missions" and bocage "tactics," I was referring more to the situation in the training scenario. [..] I am moving my troops through a forested area so that is obviously a different "terrain" picture altogether.

.

In an dense forest it is best in my experience to have your units advance in a loose line (split your squads!) using the hunt command. Use the 'target area' command to engage unconfirmed enemy contacts (the '?'). This way you can get more fire on the enemy than if you try to get all your units to move to direct visual contact.

[Sublime]

Also in woods its worth remembering that if your troops sit still or move slowly, you can often hear the enemy before they're spotted. This represents them crashing through the underbrush etc. Fighting in woods is really a no win, it can go either way and the only reliable way to win is to have your men sitting still while the enemy walks or runs into their fire. It's chaotic at best. I often will only advance with a small scout team or two, leaving everyone else behind somewhat. They'll make less noise and the fact is if you walk into an ambush in woods you'll probably be cut down really quick.

[thebigJ_A]

I have been experimenting with this phenomenon multiple times in a scenario and certain units definitely can see/target whatever you want to call it further (through fields etc.) than regular inf equipped with binocs.

I think you keep missing what they're explaining. It's not "see/target whatever you want to call it". Seeing and targeting are different, but the UI doesn't show the distinction. You're using an inappropriate metric to form your conclusions. We know they can target further from that metric, not that they can see further.

In order to prove whether they can see (spot) further than other units with binoculars, the LOS tool is useless (because it also happens to be the targeting tool). You'd need to perform a series of tests with enemies at various distances, and see if they get spotted from further away than another unit with binoculars can spot them, ideally eliminating all other variables.

Oh, and hi people. I'm new here.

(Just bought the CMBN + CW pack and 2.0. Man these games are good!)

[womble]

Thinking about it, I have some excellent examples in my current PBEM of the difference between units being able to Target and Spot. I have Brixia mortars area firing [edit: using Target Light] at locations where there are honking great T30 half tracks which are "hiding" at the edge of a wheat field behind a low hedge. Really easy to spot, but my Brixia crews can't see them, though they can target where they are. Brixia crews don't have binos, though, but that doesn't matter much in demonstrating that just because you can draw a targetting line to a place it doesn't necessarily mean you can see to a place.

[Sublime]

However you should remember mortars are allowed to target beyond what they can see to allow for targetting behind walls and hedgerows. So they probably cannot see the spot they're hitting actually.

[womble]

However you should remember mortars are allowed to target beyond what they can see to allow for targetting behind walls and hedgerows. So they probably cannot see the spot they're hitting actually.

Which is my exact and precise point. The target tool shows what they can target not what they can see, so relying on it to claim that any unit can see to a point "deeper" behind concealment is a flawed methodology. It may be the case that FOs and HQs or whatever-you-like can see deeper into concealment than units without Xray eyes ( ) but the targeting tool is emphatically not evidence for that.