Mortars,direct fire

[arpella72]

I have heard about mortars firing direct fire but I'm not quite sure what's this.I supose it's when the crew of a mortar fires on a target that they can see directly without any help.Am I right?

I found a good example here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhyGPxc4gQY&feature=related

[Michael Emrys]

I have heard about mortars firing direct fire but I'm not quite sure what's this.I supose it's when the crew of a mortar fires on a target that they can see directly without any help.Am I right?

Yes.

Michael

[YankeeDog]

Correct. The term "Direct Fire" generally refers to any situation where the crew servicing the weapon see the target through the sights mounted on the weapon. With regards to mortars and artillery pieces, this is also sometimes referred to as "Direct Lay" targeting, because the crew can lay (i.e., aim) the gun on target directly through their own observations.

The opposite of Direct Fire is, of course, Indirect Fire, where the crew is relying on observations and information from some other friendly unit to aim the weapon. Indirect fire is generally more complex to execute than Direct fire because it requires that the weapon and crew have some sort of aiming system and protocol that allows it to convert the observations of the observer into gun-laying information.

Sometimes people confuse Direct vs. Indirect with shallow-trajectory aka "Grazing" vs. high-trajectory aka "Plunging" fire. While Direct fire is more often than not shallow-angle, it doesn't necessarily have to be; a high-trajectory weapon like a mortar can do Direct Fire. Similarly, there are certain situations where even quite shallow-angle fire, such as Grazing MG fire, can be used via an Indirect Fire protocol.

[A Canadian Cat]

I just posted some screen shots and video of a German 81mm mortar team doing it in CMBN. They responded on their own when the Bren carrier approached.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1399471&postcount=631

[Broadsword56]

Yes, and it would be cool if CM allowed us to put HMGs offmap and use them for indirect fire within their range.

[womble]

Yes, and it would be cool if CM allowed us to put HMGs offmap and use them for indirect fire within their range.

Or even have them fire indirect missions from on-map.

[YankeeDog]

Yes, indirect MG fire would be cool. However, it's also of fairly limited application; it requires a fairly specific set of circumstances to exist for indirect MG fire to be possible and useful.

So overall, I'm not all that surprised that it's something that BFC has elected to set aside for now -- it would probably take a lot of effort to get it into the game in a way that would be a reasonably realistic representation of the real-world capabilities of such a tactic. Further, most players probably wouldn't use it very often even if it was in the game. It's one of those 10 lbs. of effort for 1 lb. of results situations.

[John Kettler]

Broadsword56,

If you want to see Maxims being fired indirectly see if you can locate the "Deadly Duo" episode of the show called Secret War on the Military Channel.

Regards,

John Kettler

[arpella72]

I just posted some screen shots and video of a German 81mm mortar team doing it in CMBN. They responded on their own when the Bren carrier approached.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1399471&postcount=631

I played a battle once but I don't remember which one.There was a couple of american platoons or so trying to defend a village from a german attack with armour.I got a section in a lonely house with no antitank weapons and a Tiger tank was coming.I thought it was the end for them but,I didn´t see how, the Tiger was stopped and the crew killed.Didn't know what happen but there were a couple of 60mm mortars behind that house.I supose they killed the Tiger.Is it possible?

[womble]

...I didn´t see how, the Tiger was stopped and the crew killed.Didn't know what happen but there were a couple of 60mm mortars behind that house.I supose they killed the Tiger.Is it possible?

No. They could maybe immobilise it if it sat still for long enough, but even a direct hit from a 60 isn't going to kill a Tiger. I'd be very surprised if it could kill anything with top armour.

[Michael Emrys]

And if the mortars were behind the house and could not see the tank, they wouldn't have shot at via direct lay. They would have required someone else to do their spotting for them, which would have taken too much time to be useful in that situation, and nearly impossible against a moving target anyway. Maybe a defending soldier fired an anti-armor rifle grenade, or some other anti-armor weapon was employed?

Michael

[arpella72]

I don't know.I didn´t see the Tiger coming until the last moment and I didn't care so much because I was focused on two squads taking over a german position.I recived a couple of M-10 tank destroyers later as a reinforcement but i didn't think they were on the battlefield when it happened.The mortars weren't exactly behind the house but on top of a hill behind so they could see the tank for sure.I dont think my infantry knocked down a Tiger with rifle grenades,probably they had a bazooka with one or two rockets left.

[womble]

I don't know.I didn´t see the Tiger coming until the last moment and I didn't care so much because I was focused on two squads taking over a german position.I recived a couple of M-10 tank destroyers later as a reinforcement but i didn't think they were on the battlefield when it happened.The mortars weren't exactly behind the house but on top of a hill behind so they could see the tank for sure.I dont think my infantry knocked down a Tiger with rifle grenades,probably they had a bazooka with one or two rockets left.

Or it could have been space monkeys, in other words. Wicked simian-portable AT they carry.

If they'd had a bazooka with some rounds, they'd still have been fairly fortunate to get a frontal kill on a Tigger. And they'd still have had the bazooka when you looked later.

[arpella72]

Or it could have been space monkeys, in other words. Wicked simian-portable AT they carry.

If they'd had a bazooka with some rounds, they'd still have been fairly fortunate to get a frontal kill on a Tigger. And they'd still have had the bazooka when you looked later.

..he,he...sorry,I was confuse,I'm not english spoken person.I wanted to mean that if they could destroy the Tiger with rifle grenades.They hadn't bazooka.

[PsychoGeriatric]

I was doing some research into the usage of the 2 inch mortar by commonwealth forces, since I've always been under the impression that they were principally used for laying down smoke screens. Any way I came across this little gem in the Victoria Cross citation for Major Robert Cain during the battle of Arnhem (see the part on the use of the 2 inch mortar in an anti tank capacity):

War Office, 2nd November, 1944.

The KING has been graciously pleased to approve awards of the VICTORIA CROSS to: —

Captain (temporary Major) Robert Henry Cain (129484), The Royal Northumberland Fusiliers, (attd. The South Staffordshire Regiment) (I Airborne Division) (Salcombe, Devon).

In Holland on 19th September, 1944, Major Cain was commanding a rifle company of the South Staffordshire Regiment during the Battle of Arnhem when his company was cut off from the rest of the battalion and during the next six days was closely engaged with enemy tanks, self-propelled guns and infantry. The Germans made repeated attempts to break into the company position by infiltration and had they succeeded in doing so the whole situation of the Airborne Troops would have been jeopardised.

Major Cain, by his outstanding devotion to duty and remarkable powers of leadership, was to a large extent personally responsible for saving a vital sector from falling into the hands of the enemy.

On 20th September a Tiger tank approached the area held by his company and Major Cain went out alone to deal with it armed with a Piat. Taking up a position he held his fire until the tank was only 20 yards away when he opened up. The tank immediately halted and turned its guns on him, shooting away a corner of the house near where this officer was lying. Although wounded by machine gun bullets and falling masonry, Major Cain continued firing until he had scored several direct hits, immobilised the tank and supervised the bringing up of a 75 mm. howitzer which completely destroyed it. Only then would he consent to have his wounds dressed.

In the next morning this officer drove off three more tanks by the fearless use of his Piat, on each occasion leaving cover and taking up position in open ground with complete disregard for his personal safety.

During the following days, Major Cain was everywhere where danger threatened, moving amongst his men and encouraging them by his fearless example to hold out. He refused rest and medical attention in spite of the fact that his hearing had been seriously impaired because of a perforated eardrum and he was suffering from multiple wounds.

On 25 September the enemy made a concerted attack on Major Cain's position, using self-propelled guns, flame throwers and infantry. By this time the last Piat had been put out of action and Major Cain was armed with only a light 2" mortar. However, by a skilful use of this weapon and his daring leadership of the few men still under his command, he completely demoralized the enemy who, after an engagement lasting more than three hours, withdrew in disorder.

Throughout the whole course of the Battle of Arnhem, Major Cain showed superb gallantry. His powers of endurance and leadership were the admiration of all his fellow officers and stories of his valour were being constantly exchanged amongst the troops. His coolness and courage under incessant fire could not be surpassed.

Whilst there is no evidence that he successfully knocked out any armour with the 2 inch, it seems that it was sufficient to suppress and cause the withdrawal of a self propelled gun assault. I've read variations on the account, which state that Major Cain fired the 2 inch from the hip (unlikely given the recoil) and horizontally by leaning against a wall (which seems feasible, since the 2" mortar was triggered).

On a side note, there were no Tigers in Oosterbeek until 24 September (A company of 14 Tiger IIs from Schwere Panzer Abt 506). So the action on the 20th (which actually took place on 21st) was actually against Stug IIIs of Sturmgeschutz-Brigade 280. It by no means detracts from his various acts of bravery though. The 75mm howitzer was an airborne artillery piece firing with open sights.

Lastly, Major Cain was the father in law of Jeremy Clarkson (BBC Top Gear). Apparently he had no idea that he had fought at Arnhem let alone the VC until after he passed (i think). He never spoke of it.

[LongLeftFlank]

It's been some time since I read Louis Hagen's memoir "The Arnhem Lift" (which I gather has been republished), but ISTR he helped an officer operate a PIAT from a hidden post in the attic of a rowhouse, holding at bay a pair of StuGs for a couple of days. I don't recall that he ever named the officer in question, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was this remarkable gentleman.

[JonS]

Lastly, Major Cain was the father in law of Jeremy Clarkson (BBC Top Gear). Apparently he had no idea that he had fought at Arnhem let alone the VC until after he passed (i think). He never spoke of it.

Maj Cain VC died about 10 years before Clarkson met Cain's daughter. However, Cain's daughter had no idea her father was a VC until sometime after the major had passed away.

This is very good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiRUkFCQ6iQ

[PsychoGeriatric]

Thanks very much for the link JonS. It's a glorious day in Melbourne today. Ideal for a spot of gardening. Looks like that'll have to wait for 2 hrs

[PzKpfw 1]

3/s.H.Pz.Pz.Abt 506 reported the loss of 1, Tiger II on 24.09.44 to an "PIAT", operateing with Kg. Spindler SE of Osterbeek.

regards, John Waters