Sublime Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 First of all - Yes I know I can google this. I am quite aware there are search engines. I start many of these threads to see what great nuggets get shown from the wealth of different POVs and experiences on this board. I say this because I've seen a lot more snippiness and animosity than I remember on these boards, except when those *******s (that I used to like before Close Combat IV) used to troll on the boards (yes atomic games and the close combat creators who I was shocked to find acted immaturely and childish in my opinion WHEN I WAS 14-17!!) I ask the board, what is the point of these forums if any time anyone asks a question about the game or history they get endless snarky replies about google and reading the manual. WTF is wrong with answering the question? If you take the time to say google it or RTFM then you surely could just answer the question as well? Now T30s - Why not later in the war in Normandy? Were they present and just not represented in CMBN? Phased out because we had huge numbers of Shermans by 44? Replaced by the M8 Gun carriage? Just seems like though severely more vulnerable than a Sherman, any HE chucker thats already been built should have found a use? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 They were simply replaced by something better! The full-tracked M8 HMC as seen in CMBN. The two guns, I believe, are virtually indistinguishable performance-wise. For all I know they might even be the same weapon on a different recoil mount. T30 and M3 75mm GMC both suffered from one big drawback - halftrack side armor that couldn't stop a spit ball. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted October 14, 2012 Author Share Posted October 14, 2012 Thought that may be the case. I wonder if they are the same, the T30s howitzer is noticeably a short barrel - looks like the 75mm pack literally was just put in a HT. I wonder if there was a difference performance wise. Im still sort of surprised they were completely replaced a year later. Perhaps not, maybe they were still in use in Italy and else where...? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Sublime, I'd say, without going to look it up, the T30's weapon was the same as was what was in the M8 HMC. Whether formally so or not, it was basically a pack howitzer. Also, most, maybe not all, of these weapons were gone by D-Day, replaced by the 105mm armed Sherman Assault Tank. This, compared to what preceded it, was heavily armored and fully enclosed. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted October 14, 2012 Author Share Posted October 14, 2012 Make sense. god how I love those 105 shermans... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 ...M8 HMC...most, maybe not all, of these weapons were gone by D-Day, replaced by the 105mm armed Sherman Assault Tank. I don't think Steve would agree with you if you look at the availability of the Sherman 105 in June. It's extremely rare. I know whose research I think is probably more comprehensive as to the actual availability of the system, rather than its presence in TO&Es. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 ...maybe they were still in use in Italy and else where...? IIRC, the surviving vehicles were turned over to the Brits who continued using them in Italy for indirect fire until the end of the war. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 The US mounted guns in halftracks as an emergency, stopgap, measure. The US Army theoreticians in AGF (Army Ground Forces) had come up with how they _thought_ battles would and should be fought. Their predictions (guesses, hopes?) were what drove the design and equippage of the actual army forces. In conjunction with lessons learned from our Allies (primarily the Brits), and the experiences of US forces engaged in combat, AGF realized they'd erred. (In all fairness, noone expected that they'd be totally correct in all their predictions, estimations. But, you do have to start somewhere.) To add immediate mobility to the guns, it was far simpler to mount them in halftracks. While those were being rushed to the units, the draftsmen were drawing up new, purpose-built, vehicles. Those would take some time to get designed, prototyped, fixed, produced, and equipped. That's why you see gunned-up halftracks in North Africa and Sicily, but not Normandy and Germany. Timing, not geography. Oh, RTFM and do a google search! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 Ah but see this is my lazier alternative. and I find good nuggets like them being turned over to the Brits without doing pages and pages of reading. since my 4 classes at umass Boston give me about 2-300 pages of reading a week I don't need more reading. Interesting though C3k. I wonder wtf the they were thinking with the 37mm 57mm AT rounds. Yeah yeah, adequate perhaps for early war, but wasn't anyone paying attention to the Eastern Front? Or for that matter the fact that even contemporary German tanks in 42 or 43 would do ok against even 57mm AT rounds? Especially from the front? It seems it would make sense to think ahead and design a gun that would at least easily kill contemporary armor and therefore be ahead of the game for designs a few years down the road. Seems like US ATG/TD/Armor doctrine just continuously played catch-up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Sublime and womble, I have discovered the primary introduction of the real 105mm Sherman, designated M4A3E9(105) didn't occur until December 1944, so, kudos to Steve! This source does note, though, that field mods creating the same basic capabilities went all the way back to 1943. Please see SQUAD LEADER's excellent post here. http://blitzsrbija.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=bkgeneral&action=display&thread=1185 Sublime, With the benefit of actual research, as opposed to the opinions solicited, it now appears that the T30 and similar were in fact supplanted by the M8 HMC, as detailed here. http://www.missing-lynx.com/articles/usa/dpm8/dpm8.htm The article, which has some very nice pics of a 1:35 scale Tamiya model of the wee beastie, indicates Normandy was the first large scale use of the vehicle. to me, it looks awfully crowded when compared to the fighting compartment of the gun armed M3 halftracks. This very nicely done article indicate the M8 HMC was first introduced as far back as North Africa and went from there. Call this news to me! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 MikeyD, T30 has M1A1 75mm Howitzer (p.40), and the M8 HMC has either the M2 or M3 75mm Howitzer (p.41). Data taken from the below authoritative source. Weapon performance is practically identical. Standard Ordnance Items Catalogue, Volume 1 http://www.scribd.com/doc/13810463/Standard-Ordnance-Items-Catalog-1944-Vol-1 Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted October 16, 2012 Author Share Posted October 16, 2012 JK Thanks for the info and links very interesting stuff as usual! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Sublime, You're welcome! It was pretty educational for me, too. My first encounter with the M8 HMC was, believe it or not, in two huge Funk & Wagnall's dictionaries. They had several pages of glossy photos, one of U.S. WW II planes, the other U.S. WW II armor. I remember being perplexed by the seemingly almost gunless little tank and baffled by the HMC designation, though I think the caption went on to explain it. Was in elementary school back then. Memories! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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