Using MG's effectively

[Erwin]

Playing WEGO: In scenarios where one has armor, I find that MG's to be fairly useless, almost deathraps. They are a priority target for mortars which are usually unseen, can can't pack up and run away fast enuff when spotting rounds arrive.

I find myself using a combination of inf scouts to find enemy ATG's (and tanks), arty to kill the ATG's, and only then send the tanks in supported by some inf to blast out inf defenders. Enemy mortars are less effective vs tanks and inf as you can keep em moving.

MG's that require deployment seem to get hit much of the time as they need time to set up/pack-up.

How do you guys use MG's effectively?

[eltorrente]

I keep them as far back as possible most of the time. All they have to do is add suppression, and maybe get a kill or two. They can do that from 800yards away or more. If there's a stone building, put them in there.

Keep them hidden until the mortars are done pummeling your troops. Use a squad split into sections to draw mortar fire and what-not as bait, and when the mortars are done, unhide them. You don't need to have all your troops firing all the time, and give the mortars a choice of which juicy target he's going to kill.

[Erwin]

Ah, so small maps are the problem (again). It's rare to have 800m ranges to work with (at least in the most recent campaign I played). Most of the time it's been 300m LOS at most. And am unclear what effect if any MG fire has on troops in foxholes.

[eltorrente]

Ah, so small maps are the problem (again). It's rare to have 800m ranges to work with (at least in the most recent campaign I played). Most of the time it's been 300m LOS at most. And am unclear what effect if any MG fire has on troops in foxholes.

The main thing is - don't expose them too early. If the enemy has mortars, he'll target them. Use a portion of your forces to fight early and find out what he has. Use them when you are pretty sure his mortars are empty, dead, or non existant. Doesn't matter how big the map is. Don't try to put them directly on the front lines, either. Whether they are 800 yards back, or 100 yards back - keep them back from your "normal" troops.

[Andrew H.]

Ah, so small maps are the problem (again). It's rare to have 800m ranges to work with (at least in the most recent campaign I played). Most of the time it's been 300m LOS at most. And am unclear what effect if any MG fire has on troops in foxholes.

I think the MG's role is to suppress enemy troops to either give something else time to kill them, or to suppress them so that your troops don't have to worry about them for a while. This works best at a distance where the enemy troops can't effectively shoot back (although good cover will reduce this distance).

I've had battles where, as I was playing, I realized that the MGs were really the key to my success, and then was surprised to look at the end screen and see that they caused far fewer casualties than I would have expected given how important they were.

(The .50 cal is qualitatively different, though - you really can blast people out of cover with it.)

[SelfLoadingRifle]

1) Positioning is everything. Siting MGs (or A/T guns for that matter) so that their arcs face forward will result in a short and very exciting life as once they open fire and reveal their positions, everything up to and including the kitchen sink will be hurled back at them. Siting them on the flanks with their positions hidden from the front and their arcs facing diagonally inward is the way to go. When they open up, they are far less likely to be spotted and there is the added advantage (particularly with A/T guns) that the enemy side armour will be exposed. If you have MGs (and A/T guns) correctly deployed on both flanks, your enemy will be caught in a cross-fire which can make for a very bad day for him indeed.

2) Where possible don't leave your MGs in the same place. After the initial hit, bug out to an alternative position. Don't hang around. This will avoid much of the unpleasantness of getting stonked by mortars or shot up by some heavy piece of enemy ordnance.

I hope this helps.

SLR

[womble]

They are a priority target for mortars which are usually unseen, can can't pack up and run away fast enuff when spotting rounds arrive.

It's a particularly acute problem at the moment when direct lay mortars never even need any spotting rounds after the first target they zero. But even in WeGo, if spotting rounds start to fall, all MG teams will be able to un-ass the area if you tell them to in the order phase immediately after the first spotting round falls, unless your opponent gets a lucky hit with the second spotting round, or was equally lucky with the first round and it pinned your team(s).

[Erwin]

All good common sense comments altho' they seem more relevant for MG's in defense.

And yes, if one can fire at 800+ meters range like was often possible in CMSF, that is what to do.

In the scenarios I have recently played I was attacking and LOS was restricted to only a couple hundred meters (to an enemy position) most of the time. So, it was very dangerous to set up an MG since one didn't really know what else might be out there, and how can one tell if a mortar is out of ammo, or if there are more mortars as yet unseen?

Hence my tactic of using tanks with an inf screen to blast enemy inf (once I feel confident the ATG's are KIA or cannot see me), and keeping the MG's safely out of harm's way. (At least every time I tried using em in this situation enemy mortars would do a lot of damage.)

I just wondered if there was any technique for using MG's at short ranges. eg: In CM1 it was generally fatal to use inf flamethrowers in the lead of an attack as they would be priority targeted and killed quickly. We learned that one only brought up inf flamethrowers to kill already suppressed inf.

[womble]

I just wondered if there was any technique for using MG's at short ranges. ...We learned that one only brought up inf flamethrowers to kill already suppressed inf.

That's a decent way to use MGs too, only it's more to maintain suppression while (some of) the units that generated the suppression let up on their firing to move to assault positions.

[Erwin]

Yes. Altho' in my example, it's faster and safer to let the tanks blast out the inf.

My original post was asking what (if any) is the role of MG's in short range combat when you have tanks already there (using their own MG's and main guns).

[womble]

Yes. Altho' in my example, it's faster and safer to let the tanks blast out the inf.

My original post was asking what (if any) is the role of MG's in short range combat when you have tanks already there (using their own MG's and main guns).

Adding to the tanks' suppression, really. Means you can beat a broader front, or beat the same front harder. The more bullets you have splashing around your targets the faster they're suppressed, and the more they're pinned, and that will erode their morale, to the point where eventually the lead broom will sweep them out of their hiding places. Just having your tanks there might not be enough to overcome their recovery rate, or if it is, only degrade their morale state slowly. Every couple of MGs you add is another tank-equivalent, and additionally could free your tank up to go somewhere else.

[Erwin]

fair enuff... thanks...

[noxnoctum]

Ya pretty much what Womble said. If you only have one tank firing at a position the defenders will still be taking potshots for at least a few minutes (quite possibly longer). If you have a tank and a few MGs firing at it they're unlikely to even pop their head up. Can make a big difference when your assault team shows up.

[Erwin]

I hear what you are saying, guys. My issue is the problem of keeping the MG's alive when there are unknown numbers of enemy mortars and it's impossible to know "when they are out of ammo".

Moving MG's every minute seems essential (is that realistic?) - but if mortars have LOS, that won't help especially in WEGO.

Mortars can target tanks effectively, but one can MOVE/REVERSE them and tanks continue to fire effectively. Now, if we had time delays like in CM1, that sort of gamey tactic wouldn't bee so effective heh.

[womble]

I hear what you are saying, guys. My issue is the problem of keeping the MG's alive when there are unknown numbers of enemy mortars and it's impossible to know "when they are out of ammo".

I shouldn't worry too much about mortars. They are currently bugged and will probably soon be fixed so they're not the direct lay death from above that they currently are.

Moving MG's every minute seems essential (is that realistic?) - but if mortars have LOS, that won't help especially in WEGO.

When they're working properly, even if they have LOS, they need to drop ranging shells on you (unless you're "near" somewhere they already have zeroed).

[slysniper]

I guess it is what you are willing to use them for. First I play scenarios, not QB's, so I generally do not find too many mortars to worry about.

But on the attack, exspecially the germans, I move them with my infantry, but I find the secret is my lead units draw the fire. So my scouts or half rifle teams, normally with out any auto weapons are these units. I follow closely behind with my own MG's and mortars. When my forward units draw fire, I now position my heaver weapons to take out the enemy high priority targets, if there is none then I dont expose mine.

So what I am saying, is I use infantry to find the enemy location and important targets. I use my Mg and mortars and of course heavier stuff to destroy them targets. But I find it easier to position and open up and get the first heavy volumn of fire on the enemy after the location is known. Hard for the enemy mortar to kill my mg's if I have him pinned when I open up on him.

Now this works great as long as you move you units into place under cover or smoke or something like that.

If you do not have that, then its a whole other ball game. now you are dealing with moving in the open to close the range so you can kill the enemy, not suppress him. Now it comes down to having firepower to keep any unit pinned and down while you move up into position. Does not matter what you move, MG's included.

Having Mg's as part of your front line infantry can be very benifictual. I bring them up nice and close to the enemy. I have even used them for killing a pinned squad by walking up on top of them.

Firepower is the key.

In 90% of the situations MG can provide that at distance and can be safer. But they are part of the infantry unit, using them only at long range will make your grunts weak, not like they are not that way already. learning to support them up close and personnal will increase your infantrys ability to impact the battle.