John Kettler Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Occasionally, the History Channel actually manages a) to present some and do it well. Happily, that's the case here. Oda Miller of the 3rd AD, whose account is here and harrowing, is one of those interviewed. http://www.3ad.com/history/wwll/memoirs.pages/miller.htm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETHhxwcphso Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Thanks, John. Both the article and the video were gruesome! I think I'll skip lunch today.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heinrich505 Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 John, Very interesting. I've read Belton Cooper's book - his inclusion and his insight in the video was quite powerful. These documentaries don't usually present the weaknesses of the Sherman and their results as clearly as this one did. They generally gloss over them. The toll was horrendous. In that one instance brought up by Cooper, sending those untrained 3-man crews into the fray was truly an act of desperation. It was no surprise most were knocked out. It makes me think a bit more when maneuvering my Shermans around on the virtual battlefields. Thanks for posting this. Childress - point well taken. I'm suddenly not very hungry either. Heinrich505 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 We continued on and I was firing the 75mm gun at a German tank next to a barn. I had fired one armor-piercing round when all of a sudden we received a direct hit to the turret. The shell hit the cupola ring and a flash of fire hit my periscope. The shell blew the tank commander's hatch open, took part of his head off, and then proceeded to blow off the anti-aircraft gun and mount. Bill Hey was killed instantly and he fell down on my back, covering me with blood. By the time I could get Bill off of my back, the assistant driver had bailed out and the loader had crawled through the turret and out the assistant driver's hatch. Instead of checking to see where the gun tube was located, all I could think about was getting out of the tank, since when they hit you once they generally keep hitting you until the tank catches fire. Sad business. I have to say this is much more what I expect when the TC is killed. In V1.00 I was distressed when a Sherman continued to fire and the radio operator clambered to the TC position and was similarly killed. In no way distressed the Sherman then nailed my 88mm. My feeling then and now was this was not realistic as there is no romm in the turret for dead bodies and to continue firing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 My feeling then and now was this was not realistic as there is no romm in the turret for dead bodies and to continue firing. Yet the author mentions that unhorsed crews would remount available tanks, sometimes several times, in the course of a battle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Yet the author mentions that unhorsed crews would remount available tanks, sometimes several times, in the course of a battle. I am not sure your remark actually relates to my comment. Perhaps if I add all of this occurred within a minute you may appreciate my feelings. I agree absolutely in RL crews did move to other tanks normally troop commanders and higher to continue the command and control aspect. I do not believe this behaviour is modelled in CMx2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Right. It's not modeled. But one guesses that most re-crewing happened outside the time frame of the typical CM battle; an hour or so. Your post seemed to suggest that crews lacked resilience which the extant AARs either confirm or contradict. Hence the reply. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amizaur Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Great article, unfortunately the video is said to be not available in my country to see. This part sheds some light on a subject of how a tank crew could act, and what came trough average (?) crewman's mind, when their tank was hit/penetrated: *** "I was firing the 75mm gun at a German tank next to a barn. I had fired one armor-piercing round when all of a sudden we received a direct hit to the turret. The shell hit the cupola ring and a flash of fire hit my periscope. The shell blew the tank commander's hatch open, took part of his head off, and then proceeded to blow off the anti-aircraft gun and mount. Bill Hey was killed instantly and he fell down on my back, covering me with blood. By the time I could get Bill off of my back, the assistant driver had bailed out and the loader had crawled through the turret and out the assistant driver's hatch. Instead of checking to see where the gun tube was located, all I could think about was getting out of the tank, since when they hit you once they generally keep hitting you until the tank catches fire." *** The tank was almost undamaged, only the cupola was penetrated and unfortunately, commander killed in a gore way - no one seemed to be hurt, but all the crew (even those who didn't see it and were not covered with blood) wanted to abandon the tank... They didn't try to fight on, even not think about it, didn't try to find where the shot came from, they just wanted to save their lives. Because they knew the next hit will arrive in few seconds, just a time needed for enemy tank gun to be reloaded, and most probably it would be more accurate and deadly... And that it will penetrate their armor without any problem... Sometimes high-motivated crewman, like fanatic SS crewman may want to continue fight in it's thick-armoured Tiger tank, after first penetration, believing the tank can maybe withstand the next one, but even such crewman would probably not want to stay and fight inside a penetrated PzIV... He knows he will die if he stays in, because next shots would penetrate too and kill him... Same would be true for Shermans and usually for Panthers too... Yes, sometimes even a highly motivated Sherman crew after not-so-deadly penetration would try to reverse (or even fight!) instead of bailing out... but, it should happen really _SOMETIMES_... Not usually... This is not what I see in the game... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 John, These documentaries don't usually present the weaknesses of the Sherman and their results as clearly as this one did. They generally gloss over them. The toll was horrendous. In that one instance brought up by Cooper, sending those untrained 3-man crews into the fray was truly an act of desperation. It was no surprise most were knocked out. Yes, ten thousand casualties in the 3rd Armored Division alone. And the manner in which many of them perished was... well, let's draw the curtain. Next to serving on a U-Boat I can't think of a more unpleasant duty than crewing a Sherman. Unless you were in a tank recovery outfit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 At least 35,000 merchant seaman died as a direct or indirect consequence of the war. In total 2,426 British registered ships were lost, with a tonnage of 11,331,933 grt. (27,491 men lost their lives serving on German U-boats. Together with 5,000 taken prisoner this was a casualty rate of 85%.)1 U-Boats definitely the least safe service. However the statistic is rather bizarre in including captured. losing 793 U-boats and about 28,000 submariners (a 75% casualty rate, the highest of all German forces during the war). Wikipedia !! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Great Last Words: "I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather. Not screaming in terror like his passengers." (Jim Harkins) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Next to serving on a U-Boat I can't think of a more unpleasant duty than crewing a Sherman. Not sure what your criteria for "unpleasantness" are, but being a rifleman was far more likely to get you killed, and in at least equally unpleasant ways. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Not sure what your criteria for "unpleasantness" are, but being a rifleman was far more likely to get you killed, and in at least equally unpleasant ways. More unpleasant than getting burned alive in an iron box? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 24, 2012 Author Share Posted August 24, 2012 Heinrich505, There's a somewhat equivalent book on British tanks, called something like DESIGNED FOR DEATH. Haven't read it yet, but hope to at some point. DEATH TRAPS was terrific, and not paying attention to what Belton Cooper says is, by my view, ill advised. The vid with the hit Sherman shows a Panther, but it wasn't killed by a Sherman. Instead, an M26 got it, as the more extended version clearly shows. Not that it mattered much, given it was from the flank. You can clearly see where the hits were, since they're lit from within by fire! Childress, You're welcome, even if it did make your gorge rise. dieseltaylor, As I recall, a tank which was hit and sustained crew loss of any sort automatically became Shocked. The Wiki seems low, for I've seen figures closer to 90% U-boat crew losses. As for room for a corpse, the turret floor works just fine. In battle, it's already littered with cartridge brass. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger33 Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 If you look around on Youtube there is a longer video of the M26 vs Panther part with some freeze frames and the aftermath (a bit NSFW). The Panther took out a Sherman before it was taken out by the Pershing. Would link it but I'm on my phone. On the topic of U-boats, their casualties increased exponentially as the war went on and they fell behind in the technology/tactics race. Every mission was borderline suicidal after a certain point, and then was literally suicidal at times (orders to ram warships). "Iron Coffins" by Herbert Werner is a great read that highlights their desperation and frustration. You will think he must have been the luckiest man alive by the end. That said, early on in the war they were very much the predators instead of the prey, and had lower casualty rates. It would be interesting to see some kind of timeline showing the changes in technology compared to U-boat losses. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 More unpleasant than getting burned alive in an iron box? Getting burned alive in an iron box is certainly much more unpleasant than getting burned alive out of it (i.e. White Phosphorus, flamethrowers, napalm etc.), gutted or cut to pieces by any explosive device, even the small ones which wouldn't worry any buttoned up tank crew, etc. 1st Arm Div: 1,194 KIA, 5,168 WIA, 234 DOW (Died of Wounds) 2nd Arm Div: 981 KIA, 4,557 WIA, 202 DOW 3rd Arm Div: 1,810 KIA, 6,963 WIA, 316 DOW 4th Arm Div: 1,143 KIA, 4,551 WIA, 213 DOW 1st Inf Div: 3,616 KIA, 15,208 WIA, 664 DOW 2nd Inf Div: 3,031 KIA, 12,785 WIA, 457 DOW 3rd Inf Div: 4,922 KIA, 18,766 WIA, 636 DOW 4th Inf Div: 4,097 KIA, 17,371 WIA, 757 DOW It's clear beign an infantryman was a cakewalk compared to beign a tanker. (Source: Stanton, S.L. "Order of Battle. US Army WWII", Presidio Press, 1984) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 1st Arm Div: 1,194 KIA, 5,168 WIA, 234 DOW 2nd Arm Div: 981 KIA, 4,557 WIA, 202 DOW 3rd Arm Div: 1,810 KIA, 6,963 WIA, 316 DOW 4th Arm Div: 1,143 KIA, 4,551 WIA, 213 DOW 1st Inf Div: 3,616 KIA, 15,208 WIA, 664 DOW 2nd Inf Div: 3,031 KIA, 12,785 WIA, 457 DOW 3rd Inf Div: 4,922 KIA, 18,766 WIA, 636 DOW 4th Inf Div: 4,097 KIA, 17,371 WIA, 757 DOW To reinforce your point, well less than half the personnel in an 'armoured' division drove around in tanks. Even just considering the combat battalions (armour, engr, and inf) it's still less than half the personnel. Culturally; yes, being burned in a box is right up there on the scale of horrible deaths with cachet. But very few armoured crewmen became casualties, let alone burned in a box. Also; Belton Cooper's book is poos. There. I said it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 More unpleasant than getting burned alive in an iron box? That of course is pretty awful. But I don't imagine having your guts torn out by a piece of red hot shrapnel is anybody's idea of a picnic either. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 That of course is pretty awful. But I don't imagine having your guts torn out by a piece of red hot shrapnel is anybody's idea of a picnic either. Undoubtedly true. Can we move on? I fear this ghoulish back and forth may be creeping out the Silent Majority. This is Kettler's fault. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 25, 2012 Author Share Posted August 25, 2012 Childress, Fortunately, I have broad shoulders. What was I thinking, exposing wargamers to the reality of war? Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 exposing wargamers to the reality of war? You know, John, most of us a a LOT better informed than you are. We are certainly ALL able to draw far more valid deductions - ones that don't depend on magic or aliens - from a given set of information. We are certainly not sitting here in a fog of confusion and ignorance waiting with bated breath for you to come bestow wisdom upon us. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 25, 2012 Author Share Posted August 25, 2012 JonS, And you don't recognize when someone is clearly being facetious! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amizaur Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Can we return to discussion about "reality of war" vs "reality in CMBN" ? Regarding tank casualties and actions of penetrated tank's crews ? Please... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatehunter Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Can we stop the childish discussion around which is the more horrible way to die? It's like 'my dad can beat up your dad'. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mord Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Can we stop the childish discussion around which is the more horrible way to die? It's like 'my dad can beat up your dad'. Actually this has come up before and most of the tankers here have said they'd never wanna be infantry...and a lot of infantry guys (including me when I enlisted) wouldn't EVER want to be in a tank...and then there's the WWII bomber guys who said the same about ground guys and ground guys that say the same about air guys. It's always more horrible for the other dude. I think that's just the way the human mind works. Nobody is right or wrong, it's all perspective and over active imaginations. BTW my dad would slaughter your dad...one handed, even! Mord. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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