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Terrific Sherman crew doc D-Day on!


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... I think that's just the way the human mind works. Nobody is right or wrong, it's all perspective and over active imaginations.

BTW my dad would slaughter your dad...one handed, even!

Mord.

Mord,

I've heard the very same thing. With the possible exception of the guy stuck with being the flamethrower operator, everyone would rather be where they were than in the shoes of the other guy.

I was just waiting for the "My Dad can beat your Dad" line...still laughing.... :D

Heinrich505

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...

Also; Belton Cooper's book is poos. There. I said it.

It is slightly on topic if I ask what exactly you object to ?

Is it his contention that the Sherman wasn't an even match for most of the Axis armour, or the idea that Patton endorsed it to the detriment of the Pershing or all of it ?

And why ? Seems to me that he was eminently qualified to talk on the subject and I've not seen anyone else voice a contrary opinion before.

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It is slightly on topic if I ask what exactly you object to?

If he'd stuck to his day job, describing that, it could have been a really good and interesting book. That's the book I wish he'd written.

Instead he spent most of 'Death Traps' opining on all sorts of topics well out side his pay scale. And on most of them he was laughably ill-informed. Yes, hte Patton-Pershing thing was one. But he also, IIRC, got stuck in to Eisenhower and the other really senior commanders. There is definitely an interesting discussion to be had there, but Cooper is most certainly not the person to have it with. He described the PzLehr attack towards Isigny as "the most crucial day of the Beachhead" or something like that. Bull****. PzLehr got nowhere, suffered horrible casualties, and by about midday the US was advancing again. There are multiple other problems with the book, most of which stem directly from him talking about stuff he has no knowledge of.

I'm not the only person who's pointed this out :)

http://www.amazon.com/review/RXMZBG9CFSC0O/ref=cm_cr_pr_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0891418148

http://www.amazon.com/review/R30CDHXKY2SS5H/ref=cm_cr_pr_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0891418148

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+1. Much less horrible than hanging.

Well, yes and no, Vanir. It depends if one's speaking of the Long Drop, the Standard Drop or the dreaded Short Drop. I happen to be bit of an aficionado on the subject. An apprentice Hanging Grog, if you will.

The humanitarian goal of the first two methods is breaking the neck, causing the instant demise of the condemned. The Lincoln conspirators, for example, were executed using the Standard Drop. However, there was a malfunction with Mary Surratt's rope and she 'dangled'. The Long Drop virtually guarantees a quick death but has the downside of causing the occasional decapitation.

The Short Drop was performed by placing the condemned prisoner on the back of a cart, horse, or other vehicle, with the noose around the neck. The object is then moved away, leaving the person swinging from the rope. The condemned prisoner dies of strangulation, which took between ten and twenty minutes. So, we can agree, much worse than being incinerated in a tank. This method was outlawed by most countries in the 19th century .

Hope this helps. :)

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There was also The Hoist, where the victim-to-be had the noose fastened around his neck and was then lifted by said noose off his feet. If anything, it took longer to die than the Short Drop.

Do you remember which method the Nazis used with captured partisans, notably in Russia?

/'A certain ghoulishness is necessary when discussing war and death'/

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Or the condemned man paying children to hang on his boots to help speed him along? Yeah, guttersnipes were in tougher back in the day.

Books: "Death by Design" is, I think, the title of a book on my shelf (somewhere). It is a critical look at the manner in which Great Britain designed and produced tanks in WWII. I thought was a good read.

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There was also The Hoist, where the victim-to-be had the noose fastened around his neck and was then lifted by said noose off his feet. If anything, it took longer to die than the Short Drop. Gave the malefactor ample opportunity to contemplate the errors of his ways, I suppose.

Michael

And then there's the cord/jump rope/tube sock around the neck, hang naked in a hotel room closet, in Thailand, way...I have pics...PM me, we'll chat. LMAO!

oh yeah,

My dad was French Foreign Legion in Indo-China. They shipped him out 'cause he scared the French officers more than the VM.

:)

oh DOUBLE yeah, my Dad is a milkman...mess with him and he'll slip you some out of date dairy creamer!

Mord.

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Michael Emrys,

Ah, The Hoist! A naval favorite throughout the Age of Fighting Sail. Lends new meaning to the phrase "dangled from a yardarm," doesn't it, also "to be hanged by the neck until you are dead, dead, dead?" Clearly, the westerns have the Short Drop modeled incorrectly, given how fast it's portrayed as working. Something else for BFC to fix!

To actually return to the topic, that doc was just astounding. Clear as the proverbial bell, interviews finely honed, pictures generally right (astonishing for the History Channel). I see that I was wrong about the Rhino count (high by about half--28 of 282 total tanks in 3 AD). Good coverage of applique armor, but failed to note much of it was workshop installed, not field expedient (see the Shermans that arrived in theater with special plating for driver, codriver and ammunition lockers). Nor was Patton's reaction to the sandbags and whatnot mentioned (hated them,; felt they broke down the tank). Still, one of the best things I've seen on that channel.

Regards,

John Kettler

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Clearly, the westerns have the Short Drop modeled incorrectly, given how fast it's portrayed as working.

Sometimes. That's sentiment expressed in the title of the Clint Eastwood film 'Hang 'em High' which is as much compassionate as it is retributive. Nevertheless Eastwood's character is wrongfully strung up to a low-to-the-ground tree branch and left to twist in agony. Which gives Federal Marshall Ben Johnson time to discover his predicament and cut him down. Eastwood, rope burns seared into his neck, turns vigilante.

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I watched it and then played an all armor quick battle as the US and got drilled just like the documentary....

Vowed to play the Germans from now on at least in all armor quick battles. Then started to contemplate the asymmetry of these engagements and being on the short side...

Bob

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