Pathfinding/navigating vineyards

[rocketman]

So, I had my first "encounter" with moving through vineyards and I must say it was unsatisfactory. I had rushed some troops into the edge of a vineyard to hide. There was more incoming fire so I decided to move ahead along and not across the vineyard rows. However, it was hard to trace a straight line so what happened was that the squad exited the vineyard to try to enter further ahead to the point where I had traced the move. I guess the AI tries it best not to move across rows, but the squad got killed instead when exiting the vineyard.

Is there a sure way of moving in vineyards, so that squads move along rows and never try to go across? Shorter movement commands? Hunt rather than Quick? Or should you avoid moving in them?

[Baneman]

Only way to reliably move across the "grain" is to plot waypoints every AS. It's slow too, even without the waypoint reorg.

Best avoided if at all possible.

Sorry, reread your posts and it seems your problem was guys not moving with the grain/rows ? I've not had that problem, without the movement impediment, my guys did it ok ( my sample size is small though ).

[rocketman]

Only way to reliably move across the "grain" is to plot waypoints every AS. It's slow too, even without the waypoint reorg.

Best avoided if at all possible.

Sorry, reread your posts and it seems your problem was guys not moving with the grain/rows ? I've not had that problem, without the movement impediment, my guys did it ok ( my sample size is small though ).

I did plot longer paths than one AS as you suggested so that might be one reason for them moving into the open instead as there was lower restrictions there. It also seemed that one team of the sqaud wanted to go along the row and the other across, so that one full squad is to big to move in line along the row.

[womble]

I did plot longer paths than one AS as you suggested so that might be one reason for them moving into the open instead as there was lower restrictions there. It also seemed that one team of the sqaud wanted to go along the row and the other across, so that one full squad is to big to move in line along the row.

In awkward terrain, you'll often have to split your squads into teams if you want to avoid cat-herding disasters.

[rocketman]

In awkward terrain, you'll often have to split your squads into teams if you want to avoid cat-herding disasters.

That's a good idea. Problem is if you've already split a scout team and left with a large "un-splittable" group.

I guess I have to learn some cat-hearding

[Broadsword56]

That's a good idea. Problem is if you've already split a scout team and left with a large "un-splittable" group.

I guess I have to learn some cat-hearding

Which is why it's better not to split only a scout team, even if that's all you need split at the moment.

When I play I immediately split almost all squads (leaving whole only those in reserve or well out of contact) in this order:

1. Split off the AT team. Makes it much more flexible, small, and useful.

2. Either "Split Teams" (which gives you two roughly equal sized large teams), or "Split Scout team" (which gives your scout team).

3. If #2 was to get a Scout Team, then "Split Teams" to get 2 small fire teams.

This leaves you 3 or 4 useful elements instead of one big blob of a squad. This type of splitting is an all-purpose organization, but if you have specific missions in mind for a squad then of course the Assault Team, etc., make sense to get the right weapons/equipment in the right hands.

[womble]

That's a good idea. Problem is if you've already split a scout team and left with a large "un-splittable" group.

Hmm. I thought that if you can only split once, the remainder, however unwieldy, are grouped as one team. If there's a team boundary remaining (so that they'd have their own divided mind), you can split again. Unless you've taken casualties and the remaining squad has less than 6 members.

I guess I have to learn some cat-hearding

'Tis a classic, that.

[womble]

Which is why it's better not to split only a scout team, even if that's all you need split at the moment.

When I play I immediately split almost all squads (leaving whole only those in reserve or well out of contact) in this order:

1. Split off the AT team. Makes it much more flexible, small, and useful.

Personally, I split an Assault team off first, if there are real AT weapons (zook; shreck and faust in CMBN). This stops the AT team running off with all the damn grenades (which are far more often needed for assaulting infantry than close assaulting tanks). If you don't want an Assault Team, recombine the Assault with whatever's left after you split off the AT team (which should, IMO, be the second split), then split that as you like.

2. Either "Split Teams" (which gives you two roughly equal sized large teams), or "Split Scout team" (which gives your scout team).

3. If #2 was to get a Scout Team, then "Split Teams" to get 2 small fire teams.

Is this a change in FI? I am certain that in BN I've never been allowed to split a squad into more than 3 teams, so your "Split AT; split Scout" sequence would leave the squad-minus-4 in one remaining unsplittable team.

[Childress]

Is there a sure way of moving in vineyards, so that squads move along rows and never try to go across? Shorter movement commands? Hunt rather than Quick? Or should you avoid moving in them?

They may seem like a good idea but, yes, give those suckers a wide berth. Unless you dig grapes.

On offense or defense.

[Broadsword56]

Is this a change in FI? I am certain that in BN I've never been allowed to split a squad into more than 3 teams, so your "Split AT; split Scout" sequence would leave the squad-minus-4 in one remaining unsplittable team.

No, I was speaking off the cuff and from memory re: CMBN. It seemed that sometimes I could do multiple splits like that and sometimes I couldn't, but I never really delved into the geekly details of it.

[GreenAsJade]

Huh - I've found them behaving exactly as I'd expect.

You can go across the grain, just like going across a row of fences. Which is what it is. You can't see out of them, except for the first row. I do appreciate that moving with the grain for a short distance can get messed up with action spots not being in the right row. But I'm pretty sure my guys just split up, some in one row, some in the neighboring, by leaping over. That makes realistic sense anyhow ... there's not much space in grape vine rows (at least in summer).

GaJ

[womble]

No, I was speaking off the cuff and from memory re: CMBN. It seemed that sometimes I could do multiple splits like that and sometimes I couldn't, but I never really delved into the geekly details of it.

Geeky? Me?

I'm pretty sure that three's the limit in CMBN. Even 12-man US squads can't split into more than 3. In fact, I just tried it, and if you have a 12 man squad, split 2 off it, leaving 10, the second split produces a minimum team of 3 men, with either AT or Scout split orders. ISTR Steve saying that there's a team (AS? Probably related) maximum of 7.

German 2-team squads can only be split into 3 if one of the three is an AT team, IIRC.

[rocketman]

You can go across the grain, just like going across a row of fences.

I guess the trick then is to plot a move one row at a time, one action spot at a time - otherwise they might try to find an easier way to the point.

[womble]

I guess the trick then is to plot a move one row at a time, one action spot at a time - otherwise they might try to find an easier way to the point.

Yep, your pTruppen are the laziest hounds in the Known World. They'll run out into withering fire rather than clamber over obstacles or wade through muck, unless you drive them into it...

[mjkerner]

I guess the trick then is to plot a move one row at a time, one action spot at a time - otherwise they might try to find an easier way to the point.

I haven't experienced any particular problems with them, at least not with split teams. I was retreating a platoon that got into a fix against a larger force, and had to QUICK move some teams through a vineyard. The teams were "rattled" but had no problems moving across the grain in 50 yards bursts with no problems, and most surprisingly, they didn't get "tiring" or "tired" when they finally got through it (in two or three moves, depending where they started the move).

But do not let a vehicle even touch the edge of a vineyard. They will immediately become immobile.

[Baneman]

But do not let a vehicle even touch the edge of a vineyard. They will immediately become immobile.

Not strictly true - I plotted movement for an Sdkfz250/1 that went between a low wall and a building. There was enough room for it width-wise, but the game engine obviously decided it needed more room so it took a diversion ( to my screen-screaming horror ) through the corner of the very vineyard I was avoiding.

It took down 2 rows and is not immobilised, although its tracks went from 100% to orange-circle which I imagine is one step from total immobilisation - it can still move, but so slowly I detrained its passengers since they can now walk faster

Possibly wheeled vehicles suffer more than semi-tracked ?

[mjkerner]

Not strictly true - I plotted movement for an Sdkfz250/1 that went between a low wall and a building. There was enough room for it width-wise, but the game engine obviously decided it needed more room so it took a diversion ( to my screen-screaming horror ) through the corner of the very vineyard I was avoiding.

It took down 2 rows and is not immobilised, although its tracks went from 100% to orange-circle which I imagine is one step from total immobilisation - it can still move, but so slowly I detrained its passengers since they can now walk faster

Possibly wheeled vehicles suffer more than semi-tracked ?

That could be. All my immobilizations were trucks--4 of them--none of which were actually plotted to move through vineyards. Three trucks backed into two different vineyards (TacAI's decision, not mine) to avoid MG and 20mm fire. One I had plotted to move down a road, but the vineyard was placed such that two of its AS ran into the edge of the road. The TacAI didn't path that truck to move around the edges of those squares.