TRIBUTE TO THOSE THAT GAVE THEiR LIVES AND SERVED AT PEARL HARBOR DEC 7 1941

[SS_PanzerLeader]

Just wanted to post this to remind everyone of this infamous day where so many Americans gave their lives in service of their country!

SS_PanzerLEader......out

[Rommel]

i'll give a hearty ditto to that

[Lee]

Yeah, a lot of guys died that day with little chance to fight back.

A terrible and deserved measure of vengeance was taken later, though.

[Herr Oberst]

Let us not be too nationalistic, and I am in no way belittling the event.

For the US, it was just the beginning...

For others it was another cold day spent in some terrible place trying to stay alive.

[Fionn]

Personally I think people should also remember the Soviets who died on the first day of the First Great Winter offensive on the 6th of December.

Remember all you US, the rest of the world had been at war for 18 months to 2 years by that stage (even longer in the Pacific).

Millions had died and many millions more were POWs on all sides by that stage.

___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[This message has been edited by Fionn (edited 12-07-99).]

[Dar]

Much as I agree with the sentiment for our American sailors and soldiers who died at Pearl Harbor on this day in 1941, I find it somewhat ironic that this thread is started by "SS-Panzerleader" and immediately followed by "Rommel"!

Any "von Rundstedt", "Wittman", or "Guderian" out there who wants to contribute while we're at it?

(not a flame--just a comment on the irony of the situation!)

Dar

[SS_PanzerLeader]

FYI

QUOTE:

Remember all you US, the rest of the world had been at war for 18 months to 2 years by that stage (even longer in the Pacific).

I'm not from the US im actually English, My grandfather was in the British army and served since the war started until it ended, He as in North Africa and Was also at Dunkirk , all prior to This Date in history. If we really want to go back in time, I have a Great Grandfather that served during the Great War, and Another that served in the Boer War for which I have actual Photographs and Postcards. I Havent forgotten any of the efforts of men that have served just was reminding everyone of todays date that is all :-P

I'll be gunning for ya SOON FIONN

SS_PanzerLeader......out

[WWIIRulz]

Please dont start this forum into a nationalistic debate. Someone just wanted to mention an important day in U.S history. We acknowledge that other countries were making sacrafices before us and are very grateful for it.

[Dar]

Actually, I would like to make this an international thread--I'm quite aware of the American holidays we have to honor significant military accomplishments and veterans, but I'd be quite interested in hearing what days other nationalities observe.

For example, we remember the last Monday in May as Memorial Day, to honor those who gave their lives while serving their country. Like many other nations, we honor Nov. 11 as Armistice Day (now commonly called Veterans' Day), or the end of World War I, to honor all servicemembers. I would be interested in hearing what days you Brits, French, Swedes, and everyone else observe.

Dar

[This message has been edited by Dar (edited 12-07-99).]

[dumbo]

I second that DAR. I would be interested to hear what days are celebrated in Japan, Russia ,Germany & Finland etc. Possibly "celebrate" is the wrong word, "observe" I guess is the proper term.

Anyone know?

[Guest Madmatt]

Well done Dar! I too am curious as to what type of Military or Rememberance days other countries have to honor their soldiers and historic events...

In the United States it is a sadly disturbing trend to forget the sacrifices made by those who came before us, I would hope that the same is not true elsewhere...

Madmatt out...

[rdreyer]

In France we have:

November 11th (end of World War I)

May 8th (end of European World War II)

As far as I know, the Russians (and Yugoslavs) celebrate May 9th for the surrender of Germany. If I remember correctly, it has to do with the time of the signature versus the time the surrender actually took effect.

Ciao,

Renaud

P

[Rommel]

Not to belittle any other countries that were fighting previous to Dec.7. but the date is important to Americans, as the saying goes "a day which will live in infamy". On the important dates for other countries I would humbly spent a moment thinking about those people if someone posted a note about those dates, of which there are probably a dozen different countries.

And don't forget please that american merchant marines were dying previous to this date as well, not to mention volunteers who flew in the "eagle squadron" in battle of britain, and the secret military/civilian pilots that were part of the flying tigers squadron. Just because America wasn't in the war officially before this, doesn't mean we weren't supporting countries that were.

[MarkEzra]

We Americans tend to forget how ill prepared and isolationist we were in 1941. Pearl Harbor Day is more than just a tribute to those who died, but a gentle poke in the ribs lest we ever forget the huge cost so many all over the globe paid to breath free air. Today a vocal view calmor for the days of isolationism. Decenmber 7th reminds us of the cost.

[Los]

"Actually, I would like to make this an international thread--I'm quite aware of the American holidays we have to honor significant military accomplishments and veterans, but I'd be quite

interested in hearing what days other nationalities observe."

Exactly! Instead of detracting from somebody who has taken the initiative to remember an important day in US history then maybe some others should come forth with important days in their history as they pertain to WW2 so we can give a nod to those days too.

It seems everytime someone chooses to remember something on this list (which sadly almost always is an American), then someone not american chooses to raise their hackles. Fine. Then lets see a German recognize some important day in their WW2 history or a Russian give a shout out to the commencement of some important offensive (as someone mentioned above) when it happened, or a French person celebrate the day Paris was liberated. Whatever.

Los

P.s. No malice meant towards anyone on this list, just an observation.

[Guest Captain Foobar]

Well, I am an American for starters... and this is nothing against Germans, Japanese, Italians, or any people based on Nationality, but I just had a thought.

I am very glad that we,as an international community, got ww2 wrapped up when we did. It would have been better to resolve even sooner. But imagine if appeasement continued for years later, Countries failed to get involved, and The US, Germany, and the USSR ALL possessed some nuclear capability in 1944?

(Let no replies flame me on historical ground. I am not a historian, but I know that there were at least slight possibilities of these things happening.)

Although I am speculating here, the point of my post is only that it could have gotten EVEN WORSE. And thankfully its over and no one ever needs to go to war anymore.....wait...DOH!!! ;0

[Larry Marks]

In 1995, during our honeymoon, my wife and I visited Pearl Harbor and went to the Arizona Memorial. That is something I will never forget. It was very powerful.

Larry

[Mikeathome]

New Zealand and Australia both celebrate ANZAC day on 25 April. This is the anniversary of the landings on the Gallipoli penninsular that began the infamous campaign of the same name in 1915.

The most moving ceremony apparently takes place on the penninsular where the Turks keep the cemetaries in good condition, and welcome their old foes.

ANZAC = Australia New Zealand Army Corps. Originally 1 division at Gallipoli (3 Aus Regt's, 1 NZ), later, in France, 5 Divisions (4 Aus, 1 NZ).

[Sten]

Sweden is kind of weird this way.

We haven't been an active part in a war for 200 years. (Excluding various modern UN missions and some support missions during WWII, which mainly went to the axis in the beginning of the war and the allies towards the end. Diplomacy to survive or sheer cowardice? That debate is still going on here. You decide for yourselves.)

There isn't a single even remotely war-related public holiday.

Some people who refer to themselves as 'nationalists' (you know the ones, really short hair, Dr. Martens, bomber jackets, etc) celebrate 30:th November because that was the day when Karl XII died. Karl XII was a Swedish king during the turn of the 17:th century that led HUGE Swedish forces all over Europe, conquering and plundering. He was very successful and was one of the main reasons why Sweden became one of the dominant powers in Europe during that time. http://www.sverigeturism.se/smorgasbord/smorgasbord/society/history/karl-xii.html

Sten

[This message has been edited by Sten (edited 12-08-99).]

[Compassion]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Some people who refer to themselves as 'nationalists' (you know the ones, really short hair, Dr. Martens, bomber jackets, etc) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey bub, I reseble that remark (Ok, I cut my Ted Nugent sized hair when it started falling out.. have to stay with one extreme)! Never a bomber fan, but I walked many a mile in Docs! And most of you would probably call me a bleeding heart liberal (not an aspersion against any of you, just a comment on the bent on the majority of gamers that I've come in contact with).

I do agree with an earlier poster, though. This thread is far off topic from the intention of simply saluting those who should be remebered (my grandfather was a Hawiian machineist who was actually on the Arizona that morning and stayed at his post unitl ordered to leave (didn't know the civillian workforce could be ordered... but I have a comendation from the War Department to prove it). Other contries have their days... at the risk of sounding like a nationalist, this thread should not be a point of contention.

[Fionn]

SS Panzerleader,

It NEVER fails to amaze me how many people take a broad statement 4 or 5 posts after theirs as being applicable to them. The "US" comment was merely a general comment aimed at no-one in particular.

Dar,

Easter Sunday is remembered. It's when Padraig Pearce and others rebelled against the British army of occupation in 1916. Virtually all died of course since the British chose to shell the centre of Dublin and bomb and burn them out but it was the start of the last cycle of the process which led to independence for 26 of the 32 counties of Ireland.

Belgium celebrates the 21st of July which was a day in which those people who formed Belgium won a victory in battle against Holland which basically secured the partition of Holland into Belgium and Holland ( there was more toing and froing of course but that's the gist).

Lastly, I don't think this thread is a point of contention. It's merely that Americans often post their holidays to the forum, there is a certain nationalism which makes public displays of patriotism etc de rigeur from Americans.. IMO

Whenever a US holiday comes around I am inundated with Americans sending speeches about that day, "heroic stories" about that day, today I even got a picture of the Arizona memorial, TWO pictures of the bombings in progress, 2 poems, 4 emails about "remembering Pearl" and one LONG, LONG speech about what chaplains did in Pearl harbour.

All of which were unsolicited and basically ended up putting ONE MEGABYTE of stuff in my inbox which I didn't want.

It's all this public display and virtual spamming of the rest of the world that gets my hackles up.

I'm proud of many days in the history of Ireland and Belgium but I don't take up spamming the rest of you .

For the record I do NOT think that posting to this forum is spamming. Everyone has a choice to read it or not here which means it isn't a spam IMO.. I do take exception to the emails arriving in my post from Americans who send them on email lists to thousands worldwide. It shows an extreme self-centredness and lack of consideration for others IMO.

As for this thread, I think it's fine that it remembers US dead but I'd like it to get more international too.

------------------

___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[SS_PanzerLeader]

Fionn

I relly didnt take that as a personal insult or anything :-P Just was pointing out that since I am the one that posted the thread I was infact not American- and I agree we should acknowlege other international wartime vents of major significance where many were sacraficing their lives. I also agree with you on the fact that spamming this kinda stuff to email is a bit much whereas I thought it was significant here.

SS_PanzerLeader..........out

[Fionn]

No worries.

In fact I was probably reacting on this forum to the damned spamming of pearl harbour stuff I was getting in my inbox..

I'm fine with talking about this kind of stuff here (although I'll always go "hey, what about us Europeans" when something American comes up ).

Anyways, sorry if I came across strong but I just got PO'ed at the amount of big jpegs people felt free to send to thousands of others unsolicited.. Grrr .

Anyways, back to regular programming

------------------

___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Dar]

Just an addendum to our Pearl Harbor discussion--I noticed on CNN's page yesterday that they removed a body from the Arizona in 1942--apparently while removing some powder bags from one of the turrets--and are in the process today of using DNA to identify the remains according to the article.

Also, the son of Adm. Kimmel is working to clear his father's name in another <A HREF = "http://cnn.com/1999/US/12/07/kimmel.pearl.harbor/index.html">article.</A> Adm. Kimmel and Gen. Short were commanders at Pearl Harbor who were demoted and discharged in '42 after the Japanese raid for allegedly ignoring warnings and failing to prepare for war.

Renaud:

Thanks for the posting on the French military observances! I am curious, though, is there any day marked to celebrate the revolution? Isn't "Bastille Day" that celebration?

We Americans celebrate July 4th as the day the Declaration of Indepenence was signed. However, I'd be hard-pressed to say what day we actually won our independence (I believe this was the Treaty of Paris--or you could arguably suggest the surrender of Cornwallis at Yorktown).

Sten:

That's very interesting about the Swedish nationalists. I'm certainly very familiar with what a military power Sweden was in the 1600's--much to the chagrin of the Catholic European powers!

Does anyone know if Norway celebrates an independence day? Weren't they part of Sweden's empire for centuries?

Also, is 20.July.1944 officially recognized in Germany (the day of von Stauffenberg's unsuccessful assasination attempt on Hitler)?

Dar

[tss]

In Finland we have four memorial days:

27 April is the National Veteran's Day. I don't know why the day was chosen.

The third Sunday of May is the Remembrance Day.

6 June is the Flag Day of Finnish Army. (the birthday of Marshal Mannerheim)

6 December is the Independence Day. (on 6 December 1917 Finnish parliament declared independence).

Karl XII was a Swedish king during the turn of the 17:th century that led HUGE Swedish forces all over Europe, conquering and plundering. He was very successful and was one of the main reasons why Sweden became one of the dominant powers in Europe during that time.

Well, I'd rather say that it was Gustaphus Adolphus who made Sweden into world power in 1620's and Karl XII ruined it nearly a hundred years later by trying to fight against all neighboring countries at the same time and ignoring their offers for peace. His defeat at Poltava in 1708 marked the end of Swedish power. As an interesting tidbit: the battle of Poltava was the first major Swedish battle where there were no Finnish units in Swedish army (there had been one Finnish regiment with the army, but it had been disbanded because of heavy casualties).

Does anyone know if Norway celebrates an independence day? Weren't they part of Sweden's empire for centuries?

Actually, they were a part of Sweden only for about a hundred years, from early 1800's to early 1900's. Before that Norway was a part of Denmark, at least since 14th century.

-Tommi