A gripe about some graphics

[Spook]

Greetings. My first time in posting here, and my comments below are based on the downloadable CM demo, so please bear with me.

I've been trying the CM demo for a few weeks now. I find several of its features quite compelling, especially the C&C model that does account properly for unit/leader distance & unit experience. I remain uncertain about some other game features like how the spotting chances are actually applied, so I'm still a fence-straddler here.

But for now, to the subject of this topic. I find some of the graphics of this game very bothersome.

No, not the vehicles. In fact, some of the German vehicle art is beautifully rendered, textured, & balanced in shades. (The Stug IIIG with the side skirts looks as good as a prize-winning 1/35th scale model kit.)

The infantry art & textures, however, weren't even in the same ball park in this demo. In particular, the US infantry figures are really painful to look at. I will recognize that the selected colors, in that case, are trying to represent the typical appearance of the 1944 infantryman with the khaki field jacket. Still, the resultant contrast is horrible. And in all cases, the extremely dark helmet shades matched with overly pink flesh tones are irritating as presently applied to the infantry figures of all sides.

My reason for posting this "art" issue is to ask how things might have changed since the demo, or if they might yet be subject to change. At the very least, I would hope that for all infantry figures, a better balance & texture can be achieved to reduce the worst contrasts. After all, if so much attention is given to fine-tuning the vehicle textures, then why leave the foot-sloggers in the cold? Doesn't that kind of undermine this whole 3D media experience?

From the Gamers Net page, I have at least discerned one new positive change-----the added animation of infantry figures to actually be "running", instead of the poor "ice-skating" style I saw in the demo.

Another concern is the rendition of rubble. These show up only as flat spots in the demo. Is that what is planned for the release version?

[Major Tom]

Rubble has been improved in the final version, so we are told, haven't yet seen a clip (hint! hint!).

The American troops are modeled accurately. If you have a fashon complaint take it to General Eisenhower (SP? Sorry, I am not an American and don't know the correct spelling of all of their Presidents, infact, I don't think I can spell Cretien correct either...) Indeed, if you want, you can edit the colour yourself to represend to dark olive drab undercoat. Never wear white socks with a dark suit, eh? However, to say that it isn't even in the ball park is going to the extreme. I have seen multiple World War Two movies, in colour even (Watched that entire show Combat in reruns about 3 times!), and the colour of the American troops in CM is not far off, even if it is off at all.

However, a lot is personal preferece. I don't have a problem with the infantry, many other's don't either, yet, some do. You cannot make a perfect game that pleases everyone. From what I have seen of screenshots it appears as if there are not that much change in the appearence or colouring of the uniforms. I am sure that they nailed this one with their astute closeness to reality.

For all honesty, they could have released the game based PURELY on the demo that we have recieved (however with more units and maps!) and it will still be the best wargame that I have ever seen in my life. It's gameplay is excelent, indeed, I love the artwork and 3D modeling, I mean the tracks of the Tanks even move!! When it turns, one goes forward while the other goes back!! It is freaking amazing!!!! I am not trying to criticise you, but, what they have done so far is amazing. Most games don't come out in Platnum as good as their demo has.

[This message has been edited by Major Tom (edited 12-17-99).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

I do think this comes down to personal taste. Some people think they look great, others think they need improvement. Believe it or not, the same goes for the tank textures as well. Unfortunately, there isn't a whole lot we can do for the little buggers who have to slog it out on foot. We don't have many polygons to work with for each soldier, and that is causing some of the problems you are seeing.

However, we are planning on taking another pass at the infantry textures. Not sure if you will like the final ones any better, but there are some things that we do plan on touching up.

Steve

[Spook]

To BTS & Major Tom:

Thanks for responding. And don't worry about spelling errors, Major, I've made my share & will continue to do so.

But seriously, you think the infantry colors are realistic? Well, as you've said, it's to each their own. But you think the helmet shades on any of the CM soldiers remain that dark after exposure to the elements? My best gauge of "color contrast" in recent times has been seeing how the soldiers appeared in the "Private Ryan" movie. With time & exposure, any dark-painted color or fabric will be more faded. A much better reference, to me, however, would be how the CM infantry colors would show in black & white gray-shade when compared to WW2 photos. The soldiers in the WW2 photos wouldn't have much that's close to the CM contrast. That's the basis of the "ball park" comment.

So why do I make a big issue of this? Well, as a plastic modeler in earlier days, I would often see the work of fellow modelers. When it came to armor models, it was too often the case that regardless of the wondrous detail given to the tank, the crew figures were rendered with a quick swipe of paint to represent the uniform colors and the "flesh". It stood out like a black eye, and seemed to "dehumanize" the tank crew. On the basis of the CM Demo, that "dehumanizing" note has regrettably popped up again from my view.

(I'm just revealing an infantry bias here.)

Well, as you say, to each their own, but I hope you know better the basis of my arguments and that I'm not really meaning to irritate people here.

Of course, rendering the infantry in overly sharp contrasts can make them easier to spot for some gamers trying to find their units, so I will recognize that as a balancing point.

I also am a bit irritated on how the infantry equipment is "pressed flat" on the torso portion of each figure, but I don't make that an issue because I recognize such a complaint to be demanding too much from the 3-D polygon models at this stage.

Well, if I can edit the colors and color shading myself (that true, BTS?), then that's more than I would've expected, and can just do that then. Thanks again.

[Doug Beman]

Spook, you can edit the infantry colors to show weathering, but you'll have all the infantry of the same type wearing the same colors; I don't think CM supports alternate texture sets for unit types (i.e. some 1945 rifle squads are dry-clean fresh, while others are beaten and stained)

Same goes for tanks. Each individual vehicle has one set of textures, so either a)all StuGIII (late) are identically factory fresh, or all StuGIII (late) are identically weathered.

It's been YEARS since I built my last model, and I was never very good at weathering, but CM is rekindling the old itch. I just don't have the space or the equipment.

DjB

[Fionn]

Spook, Yes, you can edit ALL the textures in the game yourself.

There will be a section on CMHQ where these "player-created textures" will be done...

Personally I am hoping we'll get some good joke textures in too.. I'd love to be able to command a terminator squad just for a laugh .

I'm drafting proposals for internal CMHQ discussion today about the future for CMHQ and will be making these public here and elsewhere in the near future.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Spook]

That's fine, Doug. Anything to "weather" the appearance of the infantry (to show they've been out in the FIELD, not some parade ground) would suffice, even if applied to all units of the same type.

Actually, I've been more an aircraft modeler than an armor modeler. (The running "snipe" joke between aircraft modelers is that there are two kinds of military models: aircraft & targets .) But when I last did some armor models, I found it to be far more of a challenge in weathering.

[not here]

I hope overly pink Americans will not find this thread offensive.

Is there a place that describes the actual process of inserting textures into CM? It looks like coolcolj is working on them already. I'm no hacker, but I spend a lot of time with Paint Shop Pro and other graphics apps, and I find the idea of custom textures fascinating.

Also, if you create custom textures, etc., how would they work in a PBEM? Do both sides see the same character set? Would my custom guys appear on both machines with the enemy's custom guys (probably he would have to load the bmp files separately)?

This may be a little premature but others seem to know a fair amount about it. If there's a detailed discussion of this please point me to it.

[BLACKHORSE_C16]

Oh, Come on now!

If that was a comment about CC4 you would all jump on it like flys to S@#$. It is not preference. They wore specific uniforms of specific colors and insignia. Please don't use Hollywood for reference, although I assume you mean DOD footage. If you wanrt a reference e-mail a military museum like Ft Knox or Bovington with your question. Or if you still have family members who were there that saved there uniforms, check them out. In closing I will hold BTS to the same standard as I do all game programmers. If it is dark OD wool, it is not khaki tan summer. Dont go all out on vehicles and half way on the rest. Don't take it personal it is professional.

[Guest Big Time Software]

To change the textures, all you need to do is edit the BMPs (Windows) or RSRC files (Mac). The important thing is that you must keep the textures in Base 2 (8, 16, 32, 64, etc) dimensions or the program will barf on them. The vehicles are harder to make, and I can almost assure you that you will not be able to make your OWN vehicle textures without many hours of modifications per view (i.e. side).

Blackhorse, I'm not really sure if I understand you correctly. But we do not have winter and summer graphics for ANY unit, soldier, tank, or gun. You guys have NO idea how much work it is to do this. Something for CM 2, but it is NOT going to happen for CM 1. As for research about how the uniforms looked in the field, I have probably a thousand dollars worth of books on UNIFORMS ALONE. I also have a nice stack of Militaria Magazines, which is the best resource IMHO. I also collect uniforms and equipment, so I know a few things about how they wear as well. So if you see something you don't like, assume that there are reasons for it other than ignorance or laziness. Sorry, but there is something called "reality" that we have to deal with, and we are doing the best we can.

I've already said we are taking another pass on the soldier textures, I am just telling you guys not to expect some sort of miracle. The major graphical shortcoming is due to the lack of polygons and the fact that humans are HARD TO MODEL, while vehicles are easy by comparison. This is not limited to games, but to plastic modeling and drawing for example.

And no, we can not increase the polygon count for soldiers. Do a search and you will turn up a couple of threads as to why not.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 12-17-99).]

[Spook]

All good points on referencing, Blackhorse. My citing of "Ryan" is that the US Rangers portrayed in that film were wearing the pattern of uniform that is shown for US Infantry in the CM Demo. Hollywood never is a reliable source for historical accuracy, but in "Ryan", the working assumption is that greater effort was made to show realistic uniforms. But of course, "Ryan" wasn't a live-action WW2 documentary, it was a modern-produced fiction based on history, so some speculation will remain. As to all other WW2 movies in color from the 1960's onward, I couldn't make any similar assumption that realistic-looking uniforms were attempted in any of those.

Furthermore, a whole different uniform was issued to US infantry en masse from late-'44 onwards. Different jacket, different shoes & leggings, etc. Would the 1945 US Infantry in CM reflect this?

My perspective on uniform color/texture/contrast in CM remains as before, which I don't believe as looking very realistic for several of the troop types. For that matter, many regular Germans used a field gray (kinda greenish) instead of the dark gray shown in the CM demo. I'd like to change that too if I can, for my own use. After all, if going to 3-D, then I'd like the media enhanced----and REALISTIC-looking-----where possible.

[Spook]

To Steve of BTS:

Just seeing your latest comments, I can see that you could feel some heartburn over my perception of "unrealistic uniforms." I shouldn't give the implication that you were opting for less realistic color choices by intention.

And within the choices of computer colors, perhaps the present ones are the best available.

It just remains my perception that the colors for many of the infantry don't seem right or "real". (IMHO, of course) That's why I brought up the terms of "texture" and "contrast" too. The colors may be right, but I pause to wonder if the graphical "execution" for these colors can be improved.

Well, as you've stated to plan "another pass" at some of the infantry graphics, I'll leave it at that. (If you do so, perhaps Fionn could post these at Gamers Net if he thinks the revised graphics can improve the perception to some new potential buyers?)

And to polygon count, fair enough not wanting to expand that in CM1. What I'm talking about is a minor gaming issue anyway.

Finally, Steve, thanks again for your "editing" suggestions. If the infantry graphics still seem "off" to me after your next "pass", then it's ultimately left to me to do something about it for my own use.

[MarkEzra]

A question I've had about US tankers is will they loose the packs and leggings and be issued correct headgear...The German crews have cool black suits. How about we get some "tanker wear"...

[Guest Big Time Software]

Yeah, we didn't get the US tanker done before the demo. AFV crews for all nations will have their own uniform.

Spook, no offense intended. There is always room for improvement. Just keep in mind that human figures are ALWAYS hard to do in any medium. In a lot of ways 3D is harder than others.

Steve

[Fionn]

Spook,

I fully expect that lots of people won't feel some graphics are what they want, don't seem real to them etc. I will say that Steve collects uniforms etc though so I'd go with what he has as the norm.

Remember a game has to decide on one norm and then go with it PLUS it has to make sure the camos used are distinctive enough so you don't mix troop types up.

Anyways CMHQ WILL host graphical mods for sure. All people need to do is contact ME about them and I'll ask for samples etc and then organise about getting them set up.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Lou]

For those who might be new, Steve didn't mention it in his post, but you can see some of his uniform collection here:

http://www.battlefront.com/resources/poc/index.html

- Lou

[This message has been edited by Lou (edited 12-18-99).]

[This message has been edited by Lou (edited 12-18-99).]

[Durutti]

If I can make a plea to the designers it would be for as many different texture slots for the infantry types as possible. For instance, different 'leg' and 'helmet' slots for the Germans would be great so you could have the majority wearing ankle boots/gaiters (regulation for the late war and always worn by Gebirgsjaeger) but a few wearing the old jackboots. My sources say it was only mainly 'Ost battalions' transferred from the east that still wore the latter. For the helmets it would be great to have the ability to make camo covers in both SS 'spotty' and Heer 'splinter' etc.

I realise we all want a game created 'in our own image' as it were so please bear with us

[CoolColJ]

I've been doing some tweaking on the Beta demo Textures :0 ANyway -I'vebben working on the uniforms over the last few days...to give them that dirty Saving Private LOok They'll be up on Website when They are finished

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CCJ

BLITZ_Force

My HomePage -----> www.geocities.com/coolcolj/

Check out my Combat Mission Beta Demo Tweaked Textures

[BLACKHORSE_C16]

To BTS,

Your doing a fine job. Being an MCSE and a little programming under my belt yes I understand. And the dreaded luser is NEVER sasified. Although you can not say that to your customers. I do not meam to sound ungrateful or belittle your efforts. As for reference check those museums. You will find the most current info. Keep up the great work.

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Allons!!