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I'm playing a QB against AI, an enemy tank is messing with my Stugs and I decide to detach two AT groups from two squads that are behind the enemy tank and close the distance so I can get a clean shot. I order both AT groups to advance quickly from behind. At the same time the enemy tank reverses ending up very close to one of my AT teams. See picture 1.

The strange thing is that my AT team doesn't see the tank!! See picture 2, when I select the team the tank dissapears. How can this be possible? The tank is only few meters away. My second AT team that is further down the slope has however a clean view of the tank?! During the next turn the AT team that is further down the slope opens up with AT rifle grenades, few seconds later the blind soldiers finally spot the tank and hit the tank with the shreck.

Then comes the heroic tank crew and guns down one of the men. Picture 3. =(

How can this be possible?

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Possible IRL? Probably not.

Reading between the lines of what's been said by "those who know" here on the forums regarding similar incidents, I *think* what's happening here in terms of game engine mechanics has to do with spotting intervals.

Basically, spotting checks in the game can't possibly be continuous -- this would require massive processor resources. So the game actually does spotting checks at regular intervals. I don't know the exact interval, but it sounds like it's something in the 4-6 second range.

So, if you have two quickly moving units that start out of LOS, and then suddenly move towards each other, and the spotting intervals line up just right, there can be this weirdness where the units don't spot each other for a few seconds until the next spotting check interval, even though they're basically on top of each other.

Anyway, that's my SWAG; this is all conjecture on my part as I have no actual knowledge of the engine's internal workings.

EDIT TO ADD: There have also been some comments by "those who know" that there is a feature in the game where small units that are completely out of C2 do not always relay what they see to the player immediately -- in other words, as far as the game engine is concerned, the tank hunter team sees the tank several seconds before you as the player do (bear in mind that an infantry AT weapon takes several seconds to prepare and fire, so the team may not actually open fire until you see the tank as well). Frankly, I am not sure whether this "feature" actually exists or not; I certainly have not seen any conclusive evidence that it does.

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Possible IRL? Probably not.

Reading between the lines of what's been said by "those who know" here on the forums regarding similar incidents, I *think* what's happening here in terms of game engine mechanics has to do with spotting intervals.

Basically, spotting checks in the game can't possibly be continuous -- this would require massive processor resources. So the game actually does spotting checks at regular intervals. I don't know the exact interval, but it sounds like it's something in the 4-6 second range.

So, if you have two quickly moving units that start out of LOS, and then suddenly move towards each other, and the spotting intervals line up just right, there can be this weirdness where the units don't spot each other for a few seconds until the next spotting check interval, even though they're basically on top of each other.

Anyway, that's my SWAG; this is all conjecture on my part as I have no actual knowledge of the engine's internal workings.

EDIT TO ADD: There have also been some comments by "those who know" that there is a feature in the game where small units that are completely out of C2 do not always relay what they see to the player immediately -- in other words, as far as the game engine is concerned, the tank hunter team sees the tank several seconds before you as the player do (bear in mind that an infantry AT weapon takes several seconds to prepare and fire, so the team may not actually open fire until you see the tank as well). Frankly, I am not sure whether this "feature" actually exists or not; I certainly have not seen any conclusive evidence that it does.

I can't speak to knowing one way or the other, but I have some suspicions that the state of the unit does impact what info you get from it. I just had a team in my battle with JonS come under fire from a tank on the other side of the wall, suddenly the tank disappears (though my guy had not gone prone and there was no smoke). My suspicion is he was in such a rattled state that I was not going to get any more intel from him. Whether that is germaine to the OP's incident I do not know.

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Those pictures are small, so do I undestand correctly - the Panzershreck hit the tank, knocking it out, the crew get out (I guess they would be a little shocked and disoriented at least by the hit effects), and kiled the AT team with their pistols ??

Woudn't the AT team - after knocking out a tank - rather wait with their rifles and MP40s ready for for the bailing out crew and try to kill them right away - before they had chance to use their pistols ? They were only meters away... Was the AT team more supressed (and defenceless) than the crew of the tank they that was just knocked down ?

What are the odds for such outcome ? Definitely possible, but chances of the tank crew should be rather low.... I hope those "Rambos with pistols" will be tuned down... :(

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I have definitely seen, on Iron difficulty at least, units opening fire on things that I can't see as the player. I don't know whether it's related to C2 delays or if you could test that with the Scenario Author Testing difficulty. Maybe we could set up a situation where the units most definitely should see each other and then see how long it takes for that information to reach the player.

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Those pictures are small, so do I undestand correctly - the Panzershreck hit the tank, knocking it out, the crew get out (I guess they would be a little shocked and disoriented at least by the hit effects), and kiled the AT team with their pistols ??

Woudn't the AT team - after knocking out a tank - rather wait with their rifles and MP40s ready for for the bailing out crew and try to kill them right away - before they had chance to use their pistols ? They were only meters away... Was the AT team more supressed (and defenceless) than the crew of the tank they that was just knocked down ?

What are the odds for such outcome ? Definitely possible, but chances of the tank crew should be rather low.... I hope those "Rambos with pistols" will be tuned down... :(

In future screen shots it might be good to focus on the unit in question. A shot just before they take out the tank and right after may give an indication as to their state. If severely rattled it would have a huge impact on how they behave. The fact that they might not have been providing you info on the enemy creates some suspicion that their morale state might have been really really bad. As it is the unit info panel is simply blank. At this point it is all conjecture. btw my answer to the concern about "rambo tank crews", keep hitting the tank as they exit and make sure there are no survivors :D. More on that in the Hamel Vallee AAR.

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Tank Hunter,

The screenshots you posted certainly show a puzzling situation.

I'd think, without any other interference, that the nearby team should see the tank. Also, after destroying the tank, there should be NO chance of the tank crew surprising that team.

Savegame?

Ken

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Sorry for the size of the images. Here is another try.

75754317.jpg

As you can see in the picture above an AT unit is located only few meters to the left of an enemy tank with another AT unit approaching in the background. I knew there was a tank up on the hill so I sent out two AT teams to hunt it down. The tank reversed during the same turn as my AT teams were advancing and the turn ended up as shown in the picture.

The problem is that those two standing next to the tank could not see it as shown in the picture below when I selected them to give them fire command.

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The AT team coming from foot of the hill was however seeing the tank.

Both AT teams came from the same platoon. None had been engaged yet so their morale was good.

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During the next turn the closest AT team spotted the tank and fired a panzer faust which made the crew abandon the tank. As you can see in the picture above the crew abandoned in fairly good order and shot down one of the AT men.

I understand the logic behind spotting and that it is cycled. I would however like to have that cycle continue even in order phase so I can provide proper orders. Now I could not give any orders since they did not see any tank so I had to hope that they would fire first during the replay phase.

The second thing is the spotting in general. This unit was advancing against the tank while the tank was reversing towards them. Why did they not spot the tank from distance while it was reversing. There were no obstacles in the way. TAC-AI should have stopped them and allowed them to fire the faust before reaching their movement destination. As it stands now the soldiers will apparently move at all cost until they reach end destination. Only then will they start looking for targets. In this case most logical action would have been to engage the tank before reaching their end destination. The question is why did they not spot a tank that almost runned them over?

The the 3rd issue is of course the superman crew that evacuates a tank under heavy AT-fire in good order and starts shooting at enemy soldiers around, but we all are familliar with this behaviour arent we?. ;)

Please don't see this as bashing. I love the game, I just want to bring up some issues that may help BF develop even better games and logics. :)

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Couple things, and thanks for the shots. very intriguing.

First item in relation to another thread, it is interesting to note the tank is not exhibiting any uber spotting, your guys managed to get close with PFs. Hats off to you, ballsy and overall successful.

2nd item, there is clearly no suppression.

3rd the unit is green and has no c2 so it could simply be an informational gap to you and perhaps the spotting cycle folks have mentioned.

As to the uber crew. Honestly I would THINK they should be in worse state, but there could be some additional factors. What is the experience level of the crew? What is the damage level of the vehicle when they bailed? Before I say this is definitely wrong, there is simply a number of variables still unknown that could influence the sequence and make something normally improbable into something slightly possible. Once possible at all, the probability that it will happen to you at the worst moment automatically applies according to Murphy's law.

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Ya, any visual oddities aside, I wouldn't expect miracles from a pair of Green Privates (or Soldaten, as the case may be) sent charging up a hill after an enemy tank by themselves.

There may or may not be some issues with the spotting (still not sure whether this "information gap" between what the unit known and what the player sees exists). But regardless, the end result of the action is just about exactly what I would expect.

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Ya, any visual oddities aside, I wouldn't expect miracles from a pair of Green Privates (or Soldaten, as the case may be) sent charging up a hill after an enemy tank by themselves.

Themselves and two other soldiers within 50ft?!

BtW one of the Brits pretending to surrender whilst two crew start shooting is a foul aspersion on the gallant Tommies.!! BF fix or something!

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Ya, any visual oddities aside, I wouldn't expect miracles from a pair of Green Privates (or Soldaten, as the case may be) sent charging up a hill after an enemy tank by themselves.

There may or may not be some issues with the spotting (still not sure whether this "information gap" between what the unit known and what the player sees exists). But regardless, the end result of the action is just about exactly what I would expect.

Agree the end result is as expected. ;) Tank disabled, the issue is why didn't they spot it before ending up 2m from it?

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I agree it CAN HAPPEN that a determined crew bails out succesfully and is able to eliminate a pair of afraid and unexperienced young privates.

But I've seen tank crews atacking whole squads of infantry, kiling many of them (and even sometimes winning that battles), so I think if we made a "tank crew against an AT-Team" test, either destroying the tanks (better) or just ordering to abandon them, with an AT-Team 20m out, then there would be lot of outcomes where AT team would be killed by those pistol-mens, even if there was no difference in experience. Maybe most of outcomes would be like that.

I want to be wrong :) and I hope someone makes such test - tank crew (after bailing out) vs AT-team.

Seem for me the AT-Team, especially the man with MP40, is to slow at engaging those EXPECTED and close targets, and because of that he lets them to recover after bailing and use their pistols...

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Couple things, and thanks for the shots. very intriguing.

First item in relation to another thread, it is interesting to note the tank is not exhibiting any uber spotting, your guys managed to get close with PFs. Hats off to you, ballsy and overall successful.

.

Yes indeed, I was afraid I would get spotted and shot to pieces but since the tank was terrorizing my troops further up the hill I figured I would take a chance and see what happens. THat's why I did it with two different AT teams so my chance of success would be bigger. As it turned out the tank did not spot any of them even when they practically almost runned over two of my pixeltruppen.

There were however no enemy soliders around that could relay the information over to the tank.. Could be the answer why it played out so well.

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Tank Hunter,

The screenshots you posted certainly show a puzzling situation.

I'd think, without any other interference, that the nearby team should see the tank. Also, after destroying the tank, there should be NO chance of the tank crew surprising that team.

Savegame?

Ken

I agree. Once the hatches started to open the two guys standing there should have known what was coming. Maybe in this case they having rifles and the crew pistols could have played a role but the crew should have been confused and dazzled which should have improved the ATs chance of capturing/killing them.

I do have a savegame but it is the turn after the events.

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Agree the end result is as expected. ;) Tank disabled, the issue is why didn't they spot it before ending up 2m from it?

THEY may have spotted it, but YOU, the player may not have been privy to this information (at least initially), because of the fact that it was a small, leaderless team completely out of C2.

As I mentioned, I am not completely sure this is what is happening. However, others have alleged that the game has some sort of feature that works like this.

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Welll.. I dont know about the rest but I can solve one mystery

when you select a unit you only see what they can see. you effectively cancel out your god view for the units view - only what they see will show up on your map. so when you selected the tank hunter team near the tank, they hadnt spotted said tank yet so it vanished - though it was still there this is a representation of them not knowing it yet.

though yes - it is silly that they wouldnt spot a tank 6 m away =(

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To the other point:

EDIT TO ADD: There have also been some comments by "those who know" that there is a feature in the game where small units that are completely out of C2 do not always relay what they see to the player immediately -- in other words, as far as the game engine is concerned, the tank hunter team sees the tank several seconds before you as the player do (bear in mind that an infantry AT weapon takes several seconds to prepare and fire, so the team may not actually open fire until you see the tank as well). Frankly, I am not sure whether this "feature" actually exists or not; I certainly have not seen any conclusive evidence that it does.

I have seen things, not in Iron, that can only be explained in this way. Next time I do, I'll make a movie...

GaJ

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