Helmet and uniform patches/icons

[Erwin]

I love all the wonderful helmet and uniform mods with patches etc.

However, I bin watching a LOT of WW2 docs on Military channel etc, and I find it very rare to clearly see ANY patches/icons on helmets and uniforms, except when it's clearly a propaganda or peaceful rear area garrison location.

While it's great to see these colorful mods in the game, many of these obviously mitigate the effects of camouflage.

Can anyone clarify how commonly they actually were kept on by combat troops - as opposed to being ripped off or obscured by dirt etc (as Aris successfully does in his vehicle mods)?

[LukeFF]

However, I bin watching a LOT of WW2 docs on Military channel etc, and I find it very rare to clearly see ANY patches/icons on helmets and uniforms, except when it's clearly a propaganda or peaceful rear area garrison location.

While it's great to see these colorful mods in the game, many of these obviously mitigate the effects of camouflage.

Can anyone clarify how commonly they actually were kept on by combat troops - as opposed to being ripped off or obscured by dirt etc (as Aris successfully does in his vehicle mods)?

As was discussed in the other thread here recently, there are plenty of pics showing troops with uniform and helmet insignia in active combat areas.

Stop relying on a few loading pics from a video game and random video clips from the Military Channel to support your theory. It just doesn't hold water.

[Mord]

Well, here's the simple fact of choice...you have it. If you don't like the mods don't use them...or if you like the actual helmet but the decals are distracting clone or paint them out of the bmp. It's an extremely easy function to do compared to most modding.

Mord.

[Erwin]

If you read my post instead of knee-jerking, I said I LIKE the mods.

Am simply asking the question... I dunno how many WW2 docs you seen, but I must have seen HUNDREDS of hours of WW2 film and stills over the last few years, and I still hold that it is HARD to see insignia or any ID on combat units. And it makes perfect sense why that would be. I would want to be camo'd to the eyeballs and no pretty red or silver flashes on my head or body.

The point is that if there are icons and patches, they would be almost invisible from more than a few feet away. So, I am simply asking modders to make em subtle.

[Mord]

They probably should be subdued anyway...just from the day to day dirt and grime. But if you want something probably best to just ask.

Mord.

[Hister]

What's up with you guys - he asked nicely and got such intense answers - is the Moon cycle so potent today?

[Mord]

I wasn't being mean...I was just making a comment.

Mord.

[LukeFF]

What's up with you guys - he asked nicely and got such intense answers - is the Moon cycle so potent today?

He's gone on and on about this recently, hence my reply. I'm not trying to be a jerk, just stating facts.

[Erwin]

Interesting what happens when people like me ask questions and get such a response justifying brightly colored patches on uniforms etc when evidence is to the contrary.

Instead of just opening yer yap just to keep repeating "you're wrong" like a demented robot, show a link to all these photos you have that show real combat troops (not PR etc) after a few days of combat with bright patches that can be easily seen like neon signs from dozens of feet away so we can compare em with the game pics.

[LukeFF]

Instead of just opening yer yap just to keep repeating "you're wrong" like a demented robot, show a link to all these photos you have that show real combat troops (not PR etc) after a few days of combat with bright patches that can be easily seen like neon signs from dozens of feet away so we can compare em with the game pics.

I have. Do some research yourself.

[Earl Grey]

Getting to see "non-PR" pictures will be a problem in itself - how mayn WW2 correspondents and photographers do you know of that were right in the thick of a battle getting shot and leisurely taking pictures while doing it??

Apart from that someone obviously thought unit patches were useful even at the front... and the US used colored patches until and into the Vietnam war, so it couldn#t have been that bad after all.

[LukeFF]

so we can compare em with the game pics.

And what is this infatuation you have with the game pics? BF has chosen what, a dozen pics per side, and you're going to base your theory about unit patches on that?

[Myles Keogh]

I agree with LukeFF. There are tons of pictures of combat soldiers wearing their division insignia in combat. (I believe a few pics of 3rd Infantry soldiers displaying blue-and-white emblem were posted in this forum a few days ago alongside photos of 101st Airborne troopers with their "Screaming Eagle" patches on full display. It's actually rare to see airborne units NOT showing their insignia.)

I was looking at some of my WWII books the other day: 1st Infantry Division soldiers flashing the "Big Red One" on a landing craft heading into Omaha beach. Wounded members of 29th Infantry with their blue-and-gray yingyangs sheltering under a cliff on Omaha. A 2nd infantry soldier with his "Indianhead" taking cover with his squad in a snow filled ditch. Members of the "Bloody Bucket" after their fight in the Bastogne corridor. An exhaused lieutenant of the Golden Lions briefing some of the few men to break-out of encirclement that engulfed their division. Troopers sporting the "Rolling W" of the 89h Infantry ducking down in a DUKW crossing the Rhine.

Yes, there are also numerous photos of troops not wearing them. They were a bit of pain to sew on. And orders sometimes required their removal to avoid tipping off the enemy to troop movements. Plus, many wartime photos were censored with visible division emblems being inked out. However, the claim American soldiers didn't wear their divisional emblems in combat simply doesn't wash with the photographic record. (I recently saw a German propaganda film from Normandy showing American POWs sporting patches of the 1st Infantry, 35th Infantry, 82nd Airborne, and 101st Airborne.)

One of the best war movies ever made: William Wellman's 1949 film "Battleground" shows how much of a pain the divisional patch could be. A replacement soldier in the 101st Airborne's glider infantry regiment proudly sews on his "Screaming Eagle" patch only to have his platoon sergeant declare that they're going on a "secret maneuver and that all shoulder patches must be removed. Upon reaching their "secret" destination, they're greeted by German propaganda leaflets that state: "Welcome to Bastogne, 101st Airborne." The platoon sergeant shrugs and tells his men: "Well, sew back on your patches, men."

How American soldiers came to sport division insignia is interesting. The idea initially came out of the American Civil War when in 1863 the Army of the Potomac introduced crude divisional insignia as a way to assist organization and reorganization in a war that saw large scale straggling on campaign and units being thrown to the four winds during combat. The Army of the Potomac's leadership wanted a simple system to quickly identify to which division soldiers belonged. Thus, each corps of the army was assigned a geometric shape and each of the three divisions of those corps was assigned a specific color for that shape: red, white, and blue respectively for the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd divisions. Soldiers wore their emblems mostly on their caps. By pure happenstance, leadership noticed that the men started to take pride in these very simple emblems of unit identity. They discovered that division emblems were good for morale by boosting unit pride and cohesion. This is why American soldiers still wear their insignia in combat today!

World War I saw the introduction of the much more elaborate divisional insignia that are in use today. Although the Big Red One still owes its color to the fact that all 1st divisions (each corps had a "1st Division") in the Union Army were identified by the color red.

[Splinty]

I think a lot of the pictures of Amis without unit insignia on their uniforms are merely of the "Here's a box of new shirts" variety. IOW the supply sergeant gets a truckload of new uniform items and hands them out in order to clear out room in the supply tent . Modern stuff comes unmarked, so I'm guessing WWII stuff did too.

[Erwin]

"BF has chosen what, a dozen pics per side."

If you read my comments you would know that I am talking about the literally hundreds, maybe thousands of hours of WW2 documentaries I have watched... in addition to stills.

And I have never said there were NO insignia, I said that they would be dirtied up and faded so they did not stand out against foliage thus mitigating the camo effects.

The problem is that 1) some folks here refuse to actually read posts and have a knee jerk reaction to what they thought the post was about. Then 2) they get their knickers in a twist trying to justify their ill-informed reactions.