World's Toughest Sherman?

[dieseltaylor]

Not so BD because in Version 1 I also experienced a crew fighting on minus two crew members falling lifeless into the turret whilst the gunner still fired on. I mean if BF wish to model the ergonomics of a turret basket with two corpses in it whilst the gunner fires fair enough. Though I suspect using the old-fashioned CM*1 method where there were a few seconds - or more of stunned tank crew was far easier to code and actually quite acceptable in terms of realism.

I am not quite sure why that was not continued with CM*2.

[ClarkWGriswold]

... my grunts freak out with the first round hit, usally putting their head between their legs and kissing their a$$ goodbye, refusing to get a grip and engage much of anything after that ...

That's been my experience with my own tank crews. Once they took a hit they would bail out and run screaming to the rear. In fact, in this very game ALL of my tanks that were hit had the crews bail out and panic. Of those, several crews were panicked for a very, very long time. When this game finished (around turn 38 or so?) I had a crew that was hit in the opening minutes of the game. They proceeded to run clear to the other side of the map! They hadn't so much as seen an enemy scout since taking the hit...yet they were STILL panicked at the end of the game. We're talking somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 minutes after losing their tank, these guys were still too freaked out to even take a "move" order. What's worse, their tank was the ONLY one that didn't get one-shotted by the enemy Shermans. If I had been able to rally them I would have had an operational armor asset. But nooooooooooo!

[womble]

That's been my experience with my own tank crews. Once they took a hit they would bail out and run screaming to the rear. In fact, in this very game ALL of my tanks that were hit had the crews bail out and panic. Of those, several crews were panicked for a very, very long time. When this game finished (around turn 38 or so?) I had a crew that was hit in the opening minutes of the game. They proceeded to run clear to the other side of the map! They hadn't so much as seen an enemy scout since taking the hit...yet they were STILL panicked at the end of the game. We're talking somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 minutes after losing their tank, these guys were still too freaked out to even take a "move" order. What's worse, their tank was the ONLY one that didn't get one-shotted by the enemy Shermans. If I had been able to rally them I would have had an operational armor asset. But nooooooooooo!

Morale is pretty variable. And affected by a lot of variables. In the last game I finished, I had a Panther get hit by a 57mm, kill the hull gunner, and suppress the rest of the crew for long enough for the ATG to slam another few rounds off the armour and for the ammo bearer/crew chief to smear some lead while the kittycommander dithered about buttoning up. Eventually after a few hits, he and the other three survivors bailed and headed for the baseline. It took about 10-15 minutes for them to rally enough to get back in the (largely undamaged in spite of the 57mm using almost its entire AP ammunition allocation on it) tank and carry on.

And yet an armoured car crew that got immobilised by a mine, (which killed 2 of the 4 crew) and then brewed up by the same ATG had recovered from Panic direct to Cautious (at least at the turnbreaks; they might've been Rattled, but generally that takes 10s of minutes to recover from) within 2 minutes.

Both crews had the same morale and experience and leadership values. Both were in C2 at the point of bailing and not thereafter. "It's complicated" (and has a lot of RNG stuff going on, I suspect).

[ClarkWGriswold]

Oh yeah. Having tank crews panic is not a complaint at all. Frankly, if my best buddy's guts had just been splattered all over me as we sat inside our iron hulk, it would probably take more than 15 minutes before I'd be like "Oh, you want me to go get back in that thing? No problem"!

However, because the game can't know the things that the human playing it knows you often get behavior that is probably not what you'd get in real life. Such as crewmen bailing out of a tank right as the threat is destroyed (by another friendly AFV) and running around out in the open, when it's obvious they'd be much safer back INSIDE their big, steel shield. It's just one of those things that is very difficult to simulate.

[stikkypixie]

Oh yeah. Having tank crews panic is not a complaint at all. Frankly, if my best buddy's guts had just been splattered all over me as we sat inside our iron hulk, it would probably take more than 15 minutes before I'd be like "Oh, you want me to go get back in that thing? No problem"!

However, because the game can't know the things that the human playing it knows you often get behavior that is probably not what you'd get in real life. Such as crewmen bailing out of a tank right as the threat is destroyed (by another friendly AFV) and running around out in the open, when it's obvious they'd be much safer back INSIDE their big, steel shield. It's just one of those things that is very difficult to simulate.

Don't forget there is a fanaticism rating for each squad/vehicle that isn't displayed in the unit info. That can determine how long they are willing to fight on. Not that I'm saying it explains all, but still .

[Baneman]

but the American tanks were able to consistently get off the first shot, even while on the move, even buttoned with dead commanders, while my Panzer IVs that were sitting still with perfect lanes of fire sat and did nothing.

To quote Leon - "always like this".

In my current "can't see the enemy" game, I've had a Panther take a "partial penetration" and go KO, but so far 3 Shermans have taken full "penetration"s and drive off unperturbed. As long as it doesn't happen in every battle, I can live with it as outliers.

But I agree with DT that there should be some delay if a crewmember is hit - even if the crew aren't taking a morale hit, surely the dead/wounded guy is physically in the way ?

[womble]

But I agree with DT that there should be some delay if a crewmember is hit - even if the crew aren't taking a morale hit, surely the dead/wounded guy is physically in the way ?

I suppose the only exception to that would be the bow gunner/radio operator. But in his case, there should be some sort of hit to C&C (as well as the inevitable inability to fire the bow MG) since channel switching and adjusting the set to keep it tuned would be compromised.

[dieseltaylor]

Funny you should mention that womble. AFAIR it was the TC who was killed first in the minute and then it was the radio operator who stuck his head through the hatch and got his blown off. The odds of nailing two crew members with their head through the hatch with an 88mm must be quite long.

It shows impressive speed to get from his position past the dead body and to put his head out without creating confusion in the turret basket for the gunner and loader. It was Ver 1.00.

[womble]

Funny you should mention that womble. AFAIR it was the TC who was killed first in the minute and then it was the radio operator who stuck his head through the hatch and got his blown off. The odds of nailing two crew members with their head through the hatch with an 88mm must be quite long.

I should coco. Still, at least the vehicle was still intact, though unless a very fine LOS break meant those headshots weren't just near misses...

It shows impressive speed to get from his position past the dead body and to put his head out without creating confusion in the turret basket for the gunner and loader. It was Ver 1.00.

Indeed. Perhaps coming from the bow gun seat, he was in the best place to eject the flopping corpse and just stuck too much out while perfoming his gory and regrettable task.

[BadgerDog]

Indeed. Perhaps coming from the bow gun seat, he was in the best place to eject the flopping corpse and just stuck too much out while perfoming his gory and regrettable task.

The bow gunner (and driver) in a Sherman M4A2E8 would use the emergency exit hatch under the bow gunner's seat to escape, if the other standard hatches were blocked with beer cases, or whatever ...

It drops away from the belly plates and we used to practice exit drills through it ... my buddy was a big guy and it took a boot in the a$$ to get him through the small opening.

Regards,

Doug

[Crushingleeek]

lol. neat exit

[BadgerDog]

lol. neat exit

By the way, it wasn't also an exit used to avoid MG fire if abandoning a disabled vehicle, but we did train to drive over a wounded man and using the tank as protection, haul him inside through the emergency hatch.

Nobody would ever volunteer to play the victim, so we used one of those medical training dummies ...

Regards,

Doug

[Crushingleeek]

don't miss!! or else wounded man becomes pancake man.

[Amizaur]

So, sometimes crews of the penetrated vehicles (with or without someone being killed) tend to panic, bail out instantly, or just break and back up the tank, or just sit there in tank doing nothing. And eventually bailout. Thats fine.

On the other hand, sometimes a penetration (even energetic one), or even multiple penetrations, even with some crewmembers dying, have absolutely no effect on remaining crew - without a second of delay, they continue to spot targets (including the shooter), rotating turrets, aiming and shooting (sometimes even killing the shooter who ambushed them, fired first, achieved clean penetration and now is reloading).

The current combination of effects, either "panicked for good and bailing out/reversing" or "not affected at all" is in my opinion not ehough.

There should be some "shocked for few seconds" state, that would be quite common penetration result. Even 1-2s of "delay" after being penetrated would mean much more realistic outcomes (much less situations where penetrated tank quckly rotates it's turret and kills the shooter before it can reload and make second shot).

The "no affected at all" situation should be least probable IMO and happen mainly for low-energy penetrations (small calliber or low excess of energy).

The "shocked for few seconds" would be most common for high-energy penetrations or penetrations where somene in the turret was killed. The time would be somewhat random (but depend on morale, experience, and the energy of penetration), so

- SOMETIMES there would be no effect and no delay at all - like now, the crew "wouldn't seem to notice" at all taht their tank was penetrated.

- Usually crew of seriously penetrated (but not knocked out) vehicle would need 2-3 seconds to recover (time needed to regain some vision - but not hearing with their eardrums ruptured - and notice that are fine, not wounded, the tank is still operational and there is no fire)

- sometimes such crew would be "off" for long time, like 20s or so, even though they are NOT panicked - just shocked or maybe - "forgetting" that there is still a battle going on outside of the armor - trying to help their wounded comrades. It happened sometimes. Then after some time (if they were still alive) they would pull themselves together and continue to fight - even without any "panic" effect.

A separate issue is, that have feling that probablity of a crewmember being killed after penetration is currently too low in CMBN. I've seen sometimes Shermans being penetrated 2-3 times in a row by a Panther - sometimes even knocked-out by the first hit, with two other hits following before the crew get out - but with no casualties!!

It's of course possible, but definitely it's not that rare, as it should be.

Where did those shells go ? What was their trajectory that they didn't either kill or seriously wound any crewmembers ?

The real statistics were AFAIK than a penetration meant - on average - one killed and one wounded.

Sometimes no casualties, only light wounds (they bailed out anyway ), sometimes whole crew killed at once, but on average - and also most frequently - the outcome was "about" one killed and "about" one seriously wounded.

Just the shell (or it's fragments) after penetrating had to go somwhere, and if it hit the central part of the tank, usually it had to either hit directly or pass very close to one of crewmembers...

[Sailor Malan2]

It might just be how I read it, but this thread is long on qualitative judgements and 'it must be fixed cos it's broken' rhetoric, and rather shorter on logic. Also:

...

The current combination of effects, either "panicked for good and bailing out/reversing" or "not affected at all" is in my opinion not ehough.

I have had many crews bail out of only slightly damaged tanks, with say 1 casualty, and be fine a few mins later. I have also had tanks hit once, look to be ok, then the crew bails (sometimes after reversing a bit - seems to depend on what they were doing at the time they were hit)

There should be some "shocked for few seconds" state, that would be quite common penetration result. Even 1-2s of "delay" after being penetrated would mean much more realistic outcomes (much less situations where penetrated tank quckly rotates it's turret and kills the shooter before it can reload and make second shot).

Where does this telepathic crew communication come from - if I had sights almost on, and the gun was still responding to inputs, it is at least possible I would finish taking the shot even with a bang happening behind me...

The "no affected at all" situation should be least probable IMO and happen mainly for low-energy penetrations (small calliber or low excess of energy).

The "shocked for few seconds" would be most common for high-energy penetrations or penetrations where somene in the turret was killed. The time would be somewhat random (but depend on morale, experience, and the energy of penetration), so

- SOMETIMES there would be no effect and no delay at all - like now, the crew "wouldn't seem to notice" at all taht their tank was penetrated.

- Usually crew of seriously penetrated (but not knocked out) vehicle would need 2-3 seconds to recover (time needed to regain some vision - but not hearing with their eardrums ruptured - and notice that are fine, not wounded, the tank is still operational and there is no fire)

- sometimes such crew would be "off" for long time, like 20s or so, even though they are NOT panicked - just shocked or maybe - "forgetting" that there is still a battle going on outside of the armor - trying to help their wounded comrades. It happened sometimes. Then after some time (if they were still alive) they would pull themselves together and continue to fight - even without any "panic" effect.

A separate issue is, that have feling that probablity of a crewmember being killed after penetration is currently too low in CMBN. I've seen sometimes Shermans being penetrated 2-3 times in a row by a Panther - sometimes even knocked-out by the first hit, with two other hits following before the crew get out - but with no casualties!!

It's of course possible, but definitely it's not that rare, as it should be.

Where did those shells go ? What was their trajectory that they didn't either kill or seriously wound any crewmembers ?

The real statistics were AFAIK than a penetration meant - on average - one killed and one wounded.

Which means that (given there are definitely cases where the whole crew is killed), there must aslo be cases where no one is... In fact the British used tanks in Normandy precisely because the casualties were very manageable... certainly not always two casualties every hit...

Sometimes no casualties, only light wounds (they bailed out anyway ), sometimes whole crew killed at once, but on average - and also most frequently - the outcome was "about" one killed and "about" one seriously wounded.

Just the shell (or it's fragments) after penetrating had to go somwhere, and if it hit the central part of the tank, usually it had to either hit directly or pass very close to one of crewmembers...

Anyone thought that (in the example that started this thread) at the range shown AP might go straight through the rank? (not able to see if it does here) so it isnt rattling around the tank. Also, I think the crew dont (generally?) bail out until the tank has stopped, and for the middle sequence of hits it is in motion...

I think people are assuming a single linear cause and effect matrix here. Why isnt it possible that after hit 1 or 2 the cres wants to bail but the criteria for them to actually do so are not yet met? (A timer simulating reation/comms, the tank being stationary? etc)

Just my thoughts.

If you really want to explore the accuracy/degree of brokenness of the game, do a range test... run say 100 tank engagements (10x10 in a good CMx1 range test:)

[dieseltaylor]

It might just be how I read it, but this thread is long on qualitative judgements and 'it must be fixed cos it's broken' rhetoric, and rather shorter on logic.

Sailor - there is plenty of evidence that the British tankers bailed from Shermans on first major hit even if the tank was OK. I am sure you can easily find verification in any tanker memoirs. Collated statistics showed that in Normandy the percentage of casualties by tank were 60.5% for Sherman crews - cause German tank. This dropped to 41.4% caused by an ATG.

The Churchill's figures were 46.7% and 45%. You can see why Sherman crews would be tempted to vacate quickly particularly as Sherman tank replacements were available.

As for crew reactions following a penetration I am sure it varied widely but overall going from the various reports from those who survived getting out of the tank was a primary objective after a major hit let alone a penetration. Arguably you could maintain brave gunners continued to fight on despite penetrations but died and are unable to tell their tale. However I think it unlikely to be common at all.

I look forward to the results of your suggested test. : )

[Tarquelne]

Should we expect Shermans to be at least a little more resilient than PzIVs to penetrating hits? At least the ones with "wet" storage?

My own experiences with the game have given me the impression the Sherman is "tougher" - better able to withstand penetrating hits - than the PzIV. But that's very anecdotal. I'm curious: Anyone have the opposite impression?

[Sailor Malan2]

Sailor - there is plenty of evidence that the British tankers bailed from Shermans on first major hit even if the tank was OK. I am sure you can easily find verification in any tanker memoirs. Collated statistics showed that in Normandy the percentage of casualties by tank were 60.5% for Sherman crews - cause German tank. This dropped to 41.4% caused by an ATG.

The Churchill's figures were 46.7% and 45%. You can see why Sherman crews would be tempted to vacate quickly particularly as Sherman tank replacements were available.

As for crew reactions following a penetration I am sure it varied widely but overall going from the various reports from those who survived getting out of the tank was a primary objective after a major hit let alone a penetration. Arguably you could maintain brave gunners continued to fight on despite penetrations but died and are unable to tell their tale. However I think it unlikely to be common at all.

I look forward to the results of your suggested test. : )

I was not disputing that crews used to bail on first hit - in fact there is a book by Ken Tout that says British pre-Water stowage Sherman crews worked on the assumption that you has 10 seconds to be out of the tank after any hit, since if it brewed up you wouldnt make it after that. In fact, he cites (IIRC) cases of crews bailing after a non-penetrating hit that does no damage, and then sheepishly remounting later.

I was pointing out that this does not mean crews should never stay put after a hit. I have play tested games where highlighting single 'odd' effects was shown to be positively misleading, and systematic testing showed the average result to be pretty much what people expected. Thus this debate (as to whether the crew bail out is nerfed) needs some stats.

Unfortunately I have not got the time to do that at present...

BTW, my pre-W Sherman example is probably unhelpful in this game, as I doubt the game models the crew response to hits differently for the Sherman, even if it models the increased brew up chance.

[dieseltaylor]

I am sure that at certain ranges Shermans will be tougher than MkIV's and on par generally - overall the Sherman is a better bet.

[Sailor Malan2]

Its a higher and hence (?) more roomy tank - thus on average there is more fresh air in it. This might mean more chance of non-damaging penetration.Bags you try it first in the live test though

[womble]

...fresh air...

I don't think many people would describe the air in a tank as fresh, pretty much ever. Even straight off the production line it'd smell of petrochem and paint.

[Just being silly, BTW].

[BadgerDog]

Its a higher and hence (?) more roomy tank - thus on average there is more fresh air in it. This might mean more chance of non-damaging penetration.Bags you try it first in the live test though

:eek:

You've obviously never been inside a Sherman, particularly when the master weapon fires and a huge wash of cordite stinky flame blows back, hitting the inside rear of the turret and wraps itself both ways, all way round to the front, singeing the back of the gunner's head. ....

Fresh is not a word I'd use in front of tankers ...

Regards,

Doug

[sburke]

:eek:

You've obviously never been inside a Sherman, particularly when the master weapon fires and a huge wash of cordite stinky flame blows back, hitting the inside rear of the turret and wraps itself both ways, all way round to the front, singeing the back of the gunner's head. ....

Fresh is not a word I'd use in front of tankers ...

Regards,

Doug

The cordite covers up the smell of digested refried beans. "Fresh" is simply a relative term.

[BadgerDog]

The cordite covers up the smell of digested refried beans. "Fresh" is simply a relative term.

That's very true ....

I see you've experienced being "closed down" with fellow tankers too ...

It's an acquired smell ...

Regards,

Doug

[Sailor Malan2]

You are all correct. My tank and AFV experience consists of 10 mins in the loader's hatch of a Bundeswehr Leopard round a forest track, and a ride in the back of an Abbott SPG on a families day. I think they must have used air freshener:)