The role of BEF in the French campaign / Storm Over Europe

[Ivanov]

Finally I managed to start testing of the 1.04 SOE campaign. I am eager to see how the changes introduced to the new patch affected the game's balance. Right now we are still ahead of Barbarossa, so it would be difficult to talk about the general balance, but the first most visible thing, is that the USA can invest a lot in the research, which is great!

As I mentioned before, I usually don't pay too much attention to the French campaign, but one thing struck me this time. So far I was always sending BEF to the continent, because I thought that it could help to hold the northern part of the front line, allowing the French armoured units to counterattack and cause some serious damage to the invaders. Then I usually managed to successfully evacuate the BEF via one of the unoccupied French ports. The problem I was always facing, was the cost of sending and then evacuating of the British units. It was always a serious issue as early in the game the UK prestige is always very scare. So this time I decided to leave the BEF in England and concentrate all the French units around Paris. The result was identical to when the French were fighting with the British support. France have fallen as always, but concentrating all the available units around the capital, allowed me to survive until the mid July and destroy one panzer group by the French tanks. At the same time, Britain was well protected against the invasion and I saved a lot of cash by not sending the troops to the continent.

My conclusion is that right now, sending the BEF to the continent has absolutely no benefits for the Allied player. If the player decides to do so, he will only spend a lot of cash and would also risk destruction of the units what would be a horrible perspective in case if the germans decide to launch the Sea Lion. And of course there is no dobut that the British army could save France in 1940 as it possibly did in 1914.

What would be an alternative to that? I think that historically not sending BEF was politically unacceptable, so maybe the troops should be already placed in France at the beginning of the game or appear there as a result of a decision event like, similarly to the WWI campaigns. In order to boost the importance of that, maybe it would be worth to tie the French NM to the presence of the BEF on the continent? Let's say that until the expeditionary force stays in Europe, France keeps on fighting even after the fall of Paris, with a new capital let's say in Toulouse or Bordeaux ? It sounds like a bit extreme solution, but it would definitely make the early game more interesting. There is no doubt that even with an alternative capital, France would fall sooner or later, but prolonging the campaign into late 1940, could seriously delay the start of Barbarossa. For the Allied player, it would be an interesting choice - sending BEF prolonges the French campaign and possibly buys more time for the USSR, but from the other hand leaving the troops on the continent would make UK vulnerable to the German potential invasion.

[The K Man]

My opponent and I have played mirror games on the SOE Campaign on all the patches. We were also curious how the new changes would effect (improve) the games balance.

Prior to 1.04, it was very difficult for the UK and US to really do much (even by 1944). So far in the 1.04 mirror games, we are up to Sep 42. The UK/US impact has been much greater, and feel that so far the changes have made the UK/US much more of a factor. Russia (in both games has contained the Germans for the most part.) We are both held up on a line near Rostov. I have just managed to take Moscow by the end of the summer 42. Has Russia been tweaked too much, only completing the games will tell. We both agree that AA can get too strong, that pretty much limits the air war especially in the East. (I had mentioned on our next games to max out the AA tech to 3.) Even at 3 it is pretty strong, but 4 and 5 eliminates any sort of air attack.

Since the AT improvement didn't get into the latest patch, we'll have to wait for the next one to test that out. AT in this game and previous are so useless (except for the initial attack on the zero level Russia tanks) that I don't even think a one level increase for them will make much of a difference. But we'll see. (I think it should have gone up 2 levels.)

I do still like the improvements made on the research mechanism. So much better than the old games (IMO.)

As far as the BEF go, I have found it to be too costly to transport twice, and even worse if you lose it. In all our games (including this latest 1.04 patch) both of us have mananged (without the BEF) to keep France in the game until June/July of 1940. So for that reasoning alone, we have never brought in the BEF.

I like your idea on the political ramifications of not sending the BEF historically. Maybe the decision event would be a nice option. I haven't given it alot of thought, since historically in all our games we have managed to make it to the Jun/Jul 40 date (which is pretty realistic.) I have to say, I think time line wise the Polish and French campaigns for our games have been pretty spot on historically. No complaints there.

[Bill101]

It's certainly true that Dunkirk affected French morale as it was seen as an evacuation by their allies, even though the British sent more troops to France after it, including an armoured division.

That having no British troops in France could lead to a drop in French National Morale might have some merit. Certainly something to ponder.

Alternatively, we could use a decision event to take away or reduce the cost to the UK of having to transport units to France.

I guess the answer lies in comparing strategies and devising one which makes it worthwhile for the B.E.F. to be sent to France, if it isn't already the case.

Ivanov, in your example, if the French had dug in around Paris with British support too, would it have made much difference? Could another Panzergruppe have bitten the dust?

[Ivanov]

It's certainly true that Dunkirk affected French morale as it was seen as an evacuation by their allies, even though the British sent more troops to France after it, including an armoured division.

That having no British troops in France could lead to a drop in French National Morale might have some merit. Certainly something to ponder.

Alternatively, we could use a decision event to take away or reduce the cost to the UK of having to transport units to France.

I guess the answer lies in comparing strategies and devising one which makes it worthwhile for the B.E.F. to be sent to France, if it isn't already the case.

Ivanov, in your example, if the French had dug in around Paris with British support too, would it have made much difference? Could another Panzergruppe have bitten the dust?

Bill, in my game even if the French fought with the BEF support, it wouldn't help them in the military terms.The British forces is was sending to France in my earlier games, usually consisted of a HQ, army, two corps, AA and a AT unit. I used this force to hold the northern flank, so they could benefit from the naval support and close to the ports, to keep the escape route open:) That kind of BEF is too weak to casue any serious damage to the Germans. It's presence, couldn't even really slow down the end of the campaign, because the French surrender depends entirely on the fall of Paris. So the German player can solely focus on the drive towards the capital, ignoring completely the northern flank. Any elaborate and spectacular maneuvers are simply unnecessary. Due to that, the best strategy for the Allied player is to group all the available French forces around Paris and no sending the BEF to the continent, because it would be irrelevant and costly.

Note that the screenshot features third or fourth turn of the German assault and some French units positioned directly east of Paris have been already destroyed. The southern French armoured corps also managed later to maul one German infantry army. Paris fell eventually due to the frontal assault.

I think the best solution would be to tie the presence of BEF to the French NM and introduce a decission event, that would allow to send the troops with a small cost. Still, it would be a hard choice for the Allied player, because by saying "yes" to the DE, he would risk the destruction of the expeditionary force, leaving the UK practically defenceless.

I agree with The K Man that right now the Polish and French campaigns work well in this sense, that players always achieve the historical results, but I think there is still some potential to exploit and make the early game more interesting.

[Bill101]

Thanks Kommandant, I'll give your suggestion some thought as it does make sense.

Getting the NM bonus/penalty to France right will be very important, so this might take a little working out and practice.

[Ivanov]

Thanks Kommandant, I'll give your suggestion some thought as it does make sense.

Getting the NM bonus/penalty to France right will be very important, so this might take a little working out and practice.

Ehm, Kommandant is not here by the moment...

But yes, I think that early the game would benefit a lot for this change.

[SeaMonkey]

Now I haven't played SOE, but I'm aware of, and I want to remind everyone of the availability of Brest and Cherbourg as a final bastion for UK units on the continent.

Many times I've used those cities to lure in German units to be bombarded by sea and air while maintaining further potential transporting of units in the UK. Depending on how the Axis player manipulates the situation, as the initiative is theirs, the Allied player can cause some delaying actions as far as other Axis endeavors.

At worst, the Allied player can retreat the BEF in a delaying action into these ports to be transported back to the Island and the Axis player better be careful how he handles the situation.

[Kommandant]

Thanks Kommandant, I'll give your suggestion some thought as it does make sense.

Getting the NM bonus/penalty to France right will be very important, so this might take a little working out and practice.

I've been reading this thread, for it's very interesting, but haven't gave any opinion...

I trust that my name was in Bill's mind at the moment, but he refered to you Ivanov

[Ivanov]

Now I haven't played SOE, but I'm aware of, and I want to remind everyone of the availability of Brest and Cherbourg as a final bastion for UK units on the continent.

Many times I've used those cities to lure in German units to be bombarded by sea and air while maintaining further potential transporting of units in the UK. Depending on how the Axis player manipulates the situation, as the initiative is theirs, the Allied player can cause some delaying actions as far as other Axis endeavors.

At worst, the Allied player can retreat the BEF in a delaying action into these ports to be transported back to the Island and the Axis player better be careful how he handles the situation.

Yeah, I've did it once. By accident I didn't secure the ports, so when France surrendered, I couldn't transport the British forces back to England until December (!), because the German player was bombing the port. But the resulting land-air-naval battle was very beneficial to me, but only due to the mistakes of my opponent. Normally having all the BEF stuck on the continent, would be a nightmare for the Allied player and should result in a disaster.

[Bill101]

I've been reading this thread, for it's very interesting, but haven't gave any opinion...

I trust that my name was in Bill's mind at the moment, but he refered to you Ivanov

I know, apologies, I was looking at too many forum posts all at once!

[Bill101]

Ehm, Kommandant is not here by the moment...

But yes, I think that early the game would benefit a lot for this change.

Hi Ivanov

I must have had a funny moment the other day, but I have amended my WWI ideas document so that if this is implemented, you, and not Kommandant, will get the credit for the idea.

Bill

[Ivanov]

Hi Ivanov

I must have had a funny moment the other day, but I have amended my WWI ideas document so that if this is implemented, you, and not Kommandant, will get the credit for the idea.

Bill

Hi Bill,

You mean that you've amended the WWII ideas?

Oh, it's not about who is going to get the credit for it. But I am glad you liked the suggestion and if you decide to implement it, the early WWII game will be much more interesting.

[Bill101]

You're certainly on the ball!

My ideas for anything to do with 1939 Storm over Europe go in the same document as comments and suggestions for improving the WWI campaigns. That way it's easier to keep them all in one place and not to have to go into different documents when I'm preparing the campaigns for a WWI patch.

But I can see that my comment might have looked as though I was confused again. Fortunately not... at least not this time!

[Ivanov]

You're certainly on the ball!

My ideas for anything to do with 1939 Storm over Europe go in the same document as comments and suggestions for improving the WWI campaigns. That way it's easier to keep them all in one place and not to have to go into different documents when I'm preparing the campaigns for a WWI patch.

But I can see that my comment might have looked as though I was confused again. Fortunately not... at least not this time!

Yes, at the end this The Great War forum

[Ivanov]

Hmmm, I've just tested the French campaign in SOE 1.05. The French surrendered immediately after the fall of Paris ( just like it used to happen in the previous versions ), despite the presence of the B.E.F on the continent... It is true, that sending the British forces has a positive effect on the French morale, but as the surrender is again tied directly to the fall of Paris ( there is no alternative capital ), so sending the BEF is still quite pointless to the Allied player. During my testing, I attacked France in the Autumn of 1939, so the surrender came actually earlier than usually. I think that the only way to prolong the French campaign, would be if some alternative capital was offered. I know, it would be ahistorical, but keeping B.E.F on the continent after the fall of Paris, would be also something that didn't take place in reality.

Is there any circumstance right now, under which the French wouldn't surrender after the fall of Paris? If not, then sending the British support is again too costly and pointless, because the Garmans can still easily win the campaign just by driving decisively towards the capital ( even bypassing Belgium ).

[Winti]

When you say B.E.F do you mean 5 units? If you do not have at least 5 it will be no increase of French moral.

If you have less than 2 then France can fall even without losing Paris, so that is the real incentive to send British troops if I see correctly...

[Ivanov]

I have sent 2 B.E.F units - the minimum required according to the instructions. So if you send 5 or more units, the French won't surrender after the fall of Paris?

[Winti]

If a country loosing its capital then there is a chance for surrender.

What can be said is that the B.E.F can improve french moral, and it means more chance to prevent collapsing of France due to moral reduction to 0

In the previous version if French morale was under 2500 it was always meant French surrender when taking Paris which is not anymore the case...

[Ivanov]

I have conducted a new test. This time I have sent a big B.E.F to France. Despite it's presence, the French surrendered one turn after the fall of Paris. Note that the German attack was conducted with a relatively small force and only from the North - big part of France remained unoccupied. I dare to say that under such a circumstances, even historically the French would probably continue their resistance:

Conclusion: the boost of French morale due to the strong presence of British forces on the continent is irrelevant, hence sending B.E.F still makes no sense to the Allied player. It would be really benefcial, if an alternative capital was offered after the fall of Paris. Let's say it could happen, if the French NM was still above 50% ( thanks to the British support ) at the very moment when the Germans manage to enter to the city. Some may argue that such a course of action would be too beneficial for the Allies, but actually sending large number of British units to assist the French, is a big gamble, because it would leave practically no troops the defend the Isles, in case of an eventual invasion. A decission to send a large B.E.F, would be then an interestiv strategical choice - from one hand the Allied player could gain the time by prolonging the campaing in the West ( beneficial to the USSR ), but on the oter he could risk a total total disaster, if the Axis player dared to land in Britain. Right now, prolonging the French campaing is simply impossible, just like it used to be in the earlier patches.

Ps. During the testing I ignored Poland and moved the German forces directly to the West, so the USSR declared the war on Axis in the 1940. There was a pop-up about the boost of Russian morale due to the Allied landings in France

[Bill101]

Hi Ivanov

Thanks for this and I think you're right in defining the issue: it's the lack of an alternative capital, because even if National Morale remains high, the loss of Paris has a high chance of leading to a French surrender in every subsequent turn. We'll have to have a think about this.

Thanks also for the notice about the Soviet boost. We'll need to change the settings in both scripts.

Bill

[Ivanov]

Hi Bill,

It's great to hear you feedback regarding this issue. If you decide to provide France with an alternative capital, I would suggest Bordeaux or Toulouse, due to their relative geographical remoteness. Then, in case of fall of the alternative capital, the Grman player should be offered a DE about creating the Vichy France.

[Ivanov]

Bill - I sent you a PM.

[Bill101]

Hi Ivanov

Bordeaux is historically the capital they moved the government to, at least in WWI when I think it moved there and back more than once!

And thanks for the message, there will be a reply coming within the next few days.

Bill

[Ivanov]

So it's Bordeaux then It's a nice city BTW.

Great news Bill

Thanks!

[SeaMonkey]

A little further with this concept could see a French and UK arresting of the German advance with exceedingly intelligent play from the Allied commander and a bit of luck.

Then you have incentives to get the Allied player to commit to the continent. The longer a delayed French surrender, more naval units defect, ....longer, land and air formations go over to the allied side.

Now, diplomacy can kick in, Axis try to get the backdoor open with Spain or with some investment, entice the USSR for a greater trade allocation(more MPPs for Germans). Italians move against Algeria and Tunisia, lots more variation.