Still confused about C2

[Erwin]

I thought by now, I understood it. But, why are my 81mm mortars that are sitting next to their heavy platoon HQ not in C2?

Yes, the section HQ is far away and no C2 to or from him since he has no radio. But, shouldn't the senior HQ be able to give C2 to the mortars if he's on top of them? The symbols for visual and voice contact are present.

[akd]

I thought by now, I understood it. But, why are my 81mm mortars that are sitting next to their heavy platoon HQ not in C2?

Yes, the section HQ is far away and no C2 to or from him since he has no radio. But, shouldn't the senior HQ be able to give C2 to the mortars if he's on top of them? The symbols for visual and voice contact are present.

If the symbols are present, then they are in C2 for the purposes of morale and sharing contact information. Problem is that they don't get to take over the platoon HQ radio for fire missions. For the purposes of keeping them "in contact" to remote spotters, either:

1. Restore their normal chain of command.

2. Park a vehicle with a radio nearby.

[Erwin]

Thanks...

My example was from the German KG Engel campaign, and there is only one vehicle radio (in the halftrack). And that halftrack is towing the ATG, so it can't be sitting next to the mortars and HQ all day. Any idea if that was a deliberate limitation?

I note that the Hvy weapons platoon section HQ has no radio either. So, am confused as to what you mean by "normal chaiin of command?"

Does that mean that only HQ's with radios can spot for the on-map mortars, and only so long as the halftrack is close to the mortars?

(Apologies for sounding like a broken record, but the C2 issues in CMBN are overly complex.)

[akd]

Normal chain of command in this case would be:

mortar --> section HQ --> platoon HQ

The dismounted German mortars do present a challenge in this regard, as their section HQs are not equipped with radios, so you have to chain c2 up from the mortars through the section HQs to the platoon HQ.

[Erwin]

If the section HQ AND the platoon HQ have no radios (as I think is the case in KG Engel) then all members of the chain have to be in visual or shouting range of the next link?

Or, is it a question of (say) placing the KG CO Engel who does have a radio (or the halftrack) with the mortars and then using one of the HQ's that does have a radio and can spot as a remote FO.

[WinOrLose]

I have a platoon leader with a radio about 100m from the company HQ with a radio.

Neither unit has taken any casualties.

Why does it say that the platoon leader is out of C2?

[Pak40]

radios can sometimes not work, others have posted that it's random. Also, both units can't be moving.

[Erwin]

The other oddity re C2 is that I have my mortars with their section HQ and their platoon HQ all together. But, there is no C2 from the mortars to any other remote FO or HQ unless I have a vehicle or unit also with these mortar units with a radio.

1) I have a platoon HQ with NO radio in a remote position which is able to call on the mortars. Why and how can that HQ call on the mortars with no apparent LOC?

2) If I remove either of the mortars' section or platoon HQ's the C2 link is broken, despite the fact that the mortars are next to a unit (Engel) which has a radio.

Am really trying to understand the C2 system...

[Vanir Ausf B]

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1272591&postcount=1

That forum post really should have been stickied.

[Erwin]

"Offboard artillery is available to all FO and HQ units regardless of their C2 status."

Ok, that rule explains my question. However, it does seem inconsistent with the RL need for a radio if the (non radio) spotting HQ is far away (no voice or visual LOC) from the mortars and there is no radio-equipped unit near the spotting HQ.

Here is the original post since it's often hard to click on a link (lol).

"For further reference, here are the german units I did most of the testing with and will use in examples later on:

CoC-Level 1 - 3. Kompanie HQ (CHQ)

CoC-Level 2 - 3. Kompanie / 4. Zug HQ (PHQ)

CoC-Level 3 - 3. Kompanie / 4. Zug / 3rd Section HQ (SHQ)

CoC-Level 4 - 3. Kompanie / 4. Zug / 3rd Section / 1st Squad / A Team - Medium Mortar (MS-A)

CoC Level 4 - 3. Kompanie / 4. Zug / 3rd Section / 1st Squad / B Team - Mortar Ammo Bearer (MS-

C2-Basics

The C2 network can be visualized as a tree. In the example above, CHQ is the trunk, PHQ is a branch, SHQ is a twig and MS-A and MS-B are leaves.

There is only one way from any given "leave" to the "trunk"; known as the chain of command.

A unit can establish C2 contact only with a superior HQ within its own specific chain of command.

Missing links can be compensated by HQ units higher up in the same chain of command.

Means of C2-Contact

Voice C2 contact between HQs and subordinate units can be established up to 50m, regardless of LOS.

Voice C2 contact between HQs and subordinate units cannot be established if one of them is inside a vehicle.

Close C2 visual contact between HQs and subordinate units can be established up to 100m, LOS provided.

Distant visual C2 contact can only be established between HQs and DIRECTLY subordinate units (next in the chain of command) and seems to be limited only by LOS.

Radio C2 contact between HQs and subordinate units seems not to be limited at all; integral radios or radio equipped vehicles provided.

Artillery Spotting - Special Rules

SR-1: Any HQ or FO unit is able to call in indirect fire from any onboard artillery unit inside a radius of 50m, regardless of LOS or C2 contact.

SR-2: Any operational, radio equipped vehicle, whether it is dismounted or occupied, in a radius up to 20m to an onboard artillery unit will enable all HQ or FO units to call in indirect fire from that artillery unit, regardless of LOS or C2 contact.

SR-3: No call for indirect fire will be processed by means of distant visual contact (LOS, +100m), even though it is a viable C2 link.

Additional Test Results

Setup 1: SHQ without integral radio and with no active C2 link is able to call for indirect fire in an radius up to 50M from MS-A.

Setup 2: SHQ inside a radio equipped vehicle is able to call for indirect fire in an radius up to 100M from MS-A (MS-A is available for the whole C2 network).

Setup 3: SHQ without integral radio but in voice (up to 50m) or close visual C2 contact (up to 100m) to PHQ is able to call for indirect fire as long as in close visual C2 contact (up to 100M) to MS-A (MS-A is available for the whole C2 network).

Setup 4: SHQ without integral radio but in voice (up to 50m) or close visual C2 contact (up to 100m) to CHQ is able to call for indirect fire as long as in close visual C2 contact (up to 100M) to MS-A (MS-A is available for the whole C2 network).

Setup 5: PHQ is able to call for indirect fire as long as in close visual C2 contact (up to 100M) to MS-A AND SHQ is integrated in the C2 network by any means except distant visual contact (MS-A is available for the whole C2 network).

Setup 6: CHQ is able to call for indirect fire as long as in close visual C2 contact (up to 100M) to MS-A AND SHQ is integrated in the C2 network by any means except distant visual contact (MS-A is available for the whole C2 network).

Setup 7: When distant visual C2 contact (LOS, +100m) is established between SHQ and MS-A (directly superior), neither SHQ nor any higher HQ will be able to call for indirect fire from MS-A (see SR-3), except SR-1 or SR-2 are in effect.

Test Summary: As long as C2 contact between all links is established by any means except distant visual contact, all onboard artillery units within that chain of command will be available to every HQ or FO unit on the map.

Possible room for improvement - Inconsistencies (imho)

Offboard artillery is available to all FO and HQ units regardless of their C2 status.

When SR-2 is in effect, onboard artillery is available to all FO and HQ units regardless of their C2 status.

HQ or FO units out of C2 contact still have access to onboard artillery which is part of another, unbroken chain of command.

The directly superior HQ of an onboard artillery unit, which has no further C2 contact, can only spot for his subordinate unit within a radius of 50m. The moment it establishes C2 contact, this radius is doubled to 100m (Setup 1, 3, 4.)

SR-3 can prohibit indirect fire which would otherwise be legit (Setup 7).

Other lessons learned during testing

There is a short delay in the visual represantation of newly established C2 links (gave me some WTF-moments before I realized that).

Clicking on the icons for the C2 links will bring up the directly superior HQ, even though the represented C2 contact might have been established with an HQ higher up in the chain of command.

Clicking on the unit names in the chain of command (part of the unit info panel) or in the unit/formation report (part of the team info panel for HQs) will bring up that unit or the formations HQ.

While in the support roster, any selected onboard artillery unit and the designated spotter will have their unit icons highlighted and blinking for easy identification."