noob Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 It would be a nice feature if AT guns and tanks could be purchased with foliage attached and thus get an increased concealment modifier, i mention this because in one of the war photos used in the CM intro screens there is a picture of an M10 covered in foliage making it look like it would be really tough to spot even when firing, AT guns especially would benefit from this level of camouflage given their low profile, this would increase their battlefield survivability considerably which IMO would be more realistic as from all the accounts of forces up against hidden guns i have read they are shown to be a lot more difficult to locate than in the current version of CM. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Good points. I think all defending units should receive a camouflage "bonus". Setting up a defense is impossible if the positions are almost immediately identified. One of the easiest defensive positions to locate in CMBN are bunkers. In real life those would be very difficult to see because they would be heavily camouflaged. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killkess Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Yup, the lack of manmade camoflage is a big problem for any static asset. I realy wonder how easily ATGs get spotted from tanks even from 1000+ meters while hiding. Often my guns die before i can even unhide them luring in high grass, in woods or other natural concealment. I maybe wrong but i believe that infantry gets a concealment bonus as long as it hasnt moved from setup. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemoN Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I'd love to be able to purchase special camouflage for units, especially AT guns and tanks. One thing I'd also love to see is slit trenches and gun pits. ATM units in trenches seem to take massive casualties when under artillery fire, which is OK considering how damn wide and shallow the trenches in the game are. I'd like to see slit trenches that are very narrow and deeper than the ones in the game. Good points. I think all defending units should receive a camouflage "bonus". I disagree with this. "Defender" may refer to virtually any type of scenario, from positions prepared for weeks or even months before the actual battle, to units being desperately thrown gaps the path of an enemy advance to plug holes in the front. Giving all defending units some kind of camouflage bonus is just as unrealistic as giving none a camouflage bonus. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noob Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 I'd love to be able to purchase special camouflage for units, especially AT guns and tanks. One thing I'd also love to see is slit trenches and gun pits. ATM units in trenches seem to take massive casualties when under artillery fire, which is OK considering how damn wide and shallow the trenches in the game are. I'd like to see slit trenches that are very narrow and deeper than the ones in the game. I disagree with this. "Defender" may refer to virtually any type of scenario, from positions prepared for weeks or even months before the actual battle, to units being desperately thrown gaps the path of an enemy advance to plug holes in the front. Giving all defending units some kind of camouflage bonus is just as unrealistic as giving none a camouflage bonus. I think that rather than all defending guns having a concealment bonus there should be versions of teh tanks and guns covered in foliage available in the scenario editor with increased concealment modifiers but at an increased cost when purchased in quick battles, their use in custom scenarios would be determined by the historical circumstances of the battle. Gun pits would be an excellent addition as well as the modification to the trenches you mention, especially a trench / wooden bunker combination. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karabekian Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 It is rather curious that a foliage layer for weapons/vehicles was not one of the first things that was included. :confused: After all the prime way to distinguish unknown photos, the units, vehicles and men in them, is by foliage. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee_Vincent Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Definitely agreed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MG TOW Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Played against the AI where Paks were placed amongst clumps of bushes. The shots seemed to come out of no where and the guns were not spotted for several rounds. True tho if you want to place a gun in an empty field and dig it in with cam then I see the point. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Statisoris Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 There is a abstraction in CMBN already that sort of creates the "pre-battle camo" effect, for AT guns at least. The effect is nowhere near what I would like to see and not exactly what you all are talking about. Here is the somewhat vague statement on page 88 of the CMBN manual that states... "Note: anti-tank guns that are deployed in the Setup Phase and do not move or rotate are harder for the enemy to spot!" I have always interpretted this as meaning those units get a concealment bonus. I would very much like to know if infantry units and/or HMG units hidden since setup gain this same concealment bonus if they remain in position and don't move until they engage the enemy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wokelly Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Played against the AI where Paks were placed amongst clumps of bushes. The shots seemed to come out of no where and the guns were not spotted for several rounds. True tho if you want to place a gun in an empty field and dig it in with cam then I see the point. I agree. I sometimes think I am playing a different game than other people. ATGs are almost always invisible until they fire at least 1 shot and usually 2. Tank commanders are blind as hell when unbuttoned and apparently can't see the enemy which the infantry right next to the tank can clearly see. Yet I come onto the forum and hear people complain about tank commanders seeing too quickly and AT guns being easy to spot. I don't get that, though bunkers do show up quickly without firing a shot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemoN Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I agree. I sometimes think I am playing a different game than other people. ATGs are almost always invisible until they fire at least 1 shot and usually 2. Tank commanders are blind as hell when unbuttoned and apparently can't see the enemy which the infantry right next to the tank can clearly see. Yet I come onto the forum and hear people complain about tank commanders seeing too quickly and AT guns being easy to spot. I don't get that, though bunkers do show up quickly without firing a shot. Of course there are loads of counter examples, that's what you get when you have a buggy and barely working spotting system. I've had a tiger roll in front of a line of foxholes just 25m away, it fired at the units there (roughly a platoon and two 57mm's), the smoke from the explosion then hid the tiger (just 25m away) for three turns for all ground units while the tiger was happily blasting away at said units. And no, it wasn't area fire. I've had tanks spot infantry in ambush positions in a light forest with maximum trees at 100m+ while the entire LOS was blocked by tree stumps when zooming in ( it was nearly as dense as dense forest with maximum trees) at least 10 times in a single game, I've had ATG's in ambush position at the edge of a forest being spotted and killed with two shots each by buttoned up Stug 3's at 1500m without me being able to even react (WEGO, and I didn't even move them after setting up, and they were on hide), etc. There are many odd things happening in the game, sometimes you have tanks and infantry being damn near invisible while happily firing away from an exposed position, sometimes you have units light up like beacons in the most extreme cover and camouflage imaginable. But for me (and many others by the looks of it) there is a problem hidden between those, namely tanks being able to spot too well in certain circumstances (it seems like spotting is mostly fine on more open maps) and infantry often being on LSD while they're supposed to be spotting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertram Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I agree. I sometimes think I am playing a different game than other people. ATGs are almost always invisible until they fire at least 1 shot and usually 2. Tank commanders are blind as hell when unbuttoned and apparently can't see the enemy which the infantry right next to the tank can clearly see. Yet I come onto the forum and hear people complain about tank commanders seeing too quickly and AT guns being easy to spot. I don't get that, though bunkers do show up quickly without firing a shot. I agree with this... Played a scenario against Umlaut, in which he had SP guns sniping at my tanks. Even with me knowing where he was, and having 3 tanks with LOS and a covered arc over the spot, he still could sneak a SP gun forward and kill a tank without anyone spotting him. Only the surviving crew members did spot him, the moment they exited the tank.... And that not once, but several times. Rather frustrating. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MengJiaoRedux Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I agree with this... Played a scenario against Umlaut, in which he had SP guns sniping at my tanks. Even with me knowing where he was, and having 3 tanks with LOS and a covered arc over the spot, he still could sneak a SP gun forward and kill a tank without anyone spotting him. Only the surviving crew members did spot him, the moment they exited the tank.... And that not once, but several times. Rather frustrating. I haven't played the game in six months or so (just getting back to it), but I recall that it was useful to have infantry keep tanks under fire to keep them from spotting AT guns. Conversely, of course, tanks allowed to spot at leasure seemed to spot almost anything without too much trouble eventually. But that was long ago. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I disagree with this. "Defender" may refer to virtually any type of scenario, from positions prepared for weeks or even months before the actual battle, to units being desperately thrown gaps the path of an enemy advance to plug holes in the front. Giving all defending units some kind of camouflage bonus is just as unrealistic as giving none a camouflage bonus. I disagree with your disagreement. A gun can be well camouflaged within minutes after being setup. I'd say that given the local terrain/vegetation and a typical Normandy or European setting, most crews can camouflage a gun or even a fighting vehicle in less than a half hour. Obviously spending some additional time will make the camo illusion work better but I hardly think that days or weeks will make much difference beyond that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemuelG Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I support the addition of foliage camo. Not at all confident it'll happen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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