A couple of minor ammo resupply thoughts/requests

[YankeeDog]

I think these may have been brought up before, but some gameplay situations reminded me:

Part the First

MG teams and associated ammo bearer teams: This is rare since the MG teams themselves usually start with a lot of ammo, but I just had a situation where this came up: My MG team ran dry and started "borrowing" ammo from its associated (adjacent) ammo bearer team. This was in a campaign and I hadn't had resupply for a couple of scenarios. Pretty soon even the ammo bearer team's supply was running low.

Now, here's the oddity: I had a truck with lots of ammo in the rear, so I could have sent the bearer team back to get more ammo. But since there is no way in-game to directly transfer ammo from the bearer team to the MG, this would have left the MG completely without ammo until the bearer team got back. The bearer team did have a few hundred rounds left, so it should have been able to leave a belt or two with the MG while it ran back to the rear. As it was, since I really couldn't leave the position completely without ammo for 2-3 turns, what I actually did was leave the ammo bearer team to man the firing position as best it could with rifles, while the MG team went back to get ammo. The exact opposite of how things should have been done.

IMHO, the best way to fix this would be to actually allow MGs to "Acquire" ammo from their associated ammo bearer teams. But I seem to recall that there have been previous BFC comments to the effect that this would be time-consuming to code and therefore not something we're likely to see until at least the next major game engine release (i.e., CM:Battle of the Bulge). So... in the interim, it sure would be great if the code could somehow be adjusted so that MG teams used the ammo of their associated ammo bearer team *first* (assuming the bearer team is nearby), and then started working on their own internal load. This probably applies to guns with ammo teams, too. Don't know if this is an "easy" thing to code or not, but if it can be done without undue delay to the development schedule, it sure would be a nice tweak.

Part the second:

Acquiring ammo from vehicles with large stocks.The amounts of ammo you can pick up from a vehicle/bunker is related to the current amount in the vehicle/bunker. The higher the amount of ammo currently carried by the ammo "Provider", the higher the minimum "Acquire". E.g., U.S. 6x6 trucks typically start with >2k .30-'06 ammo, and the minimum you can "Acquire" from them when they are carrying this load is 500 rounds.

A 500 round pick-up is fine if you're resupplying a more-or-less full headcount rifle squad or MG team; it's rare that you'd want less than this for units of this size/ammo usage rate. But several times now, I have been in situations where I have wanted to resupply a smaller team (such as a scout team), and/or a team with only a few weapons that fire .30-'06. For example, US Para squads have a mix of Thompsons, Carbines, Garands, and sometimes an M1919A6 LMG. Depending on whether the Para squad is starting the Scenario/Campaign at full headcount (due to historical realities, they often don't), and casualties taken during a scenario or campaign, it is quite possible to end up with a Para squad that is still a viable fighting unit, but has only 1-3 Garands and no M1919A6.

Anyway, 500 rounds of .30-'06 is way too much ammo for a team that only has 1-3 Garands and nothing else that fires this cartridge. But since this is the least you can "Acquire" from a fully loaded truck, you have to choose between of sending a team out with low ammo, or weighing it down with an unnecessary amount. It sure would be great if the Acquire options could be tweaked, so that there was always a low pickup option. For example, in the case of the 6x6 truck, pickup options of 2k, 1k, 500 & 200 M2 ball would probably be a good spread of options. If it's a matter of saving UI space, one of the .30 carbine options could be done away with -- the truck starts with 400 rounds of .30 carbine, and I don't think we really need options of 400, 300, 200 & 100 here. 400, 200 & 100 would probably be fine.

Cheers,

YD

[Wreck]

I'll agree with complaint #1. Acquire would be nice, but I can think of several other ways to do things that would be just fine with me:

1) when a MG team gets low, take most ammo from its associated ammo team. Leave ~100 rounds or whatever for their use. This should happen automatically.

2) slightly harder than 1: when a MG team drops below twice the #rounds that its bearer team has, take (say) 200 rounds. The idea here is to keep topping off the MG team whenever the bearers are close.

3) change MG team pairs to be actual squads with 2 teams, so that they merge whenever close. Then they would automatically share ammo as per currently implemented. The player could then split them manually.

Your complaint #2 is something I have noticed, but I've never found ammo to be tight enough in a campaign for it to matter that I am somewhat overloading some teams on rare occasion.

[YankeeDog]

3) change MG team pairs to be actual squads with 2 teams, so that they merge whenever close. Then they would automatically share ammo as per currently implemented. The player could then split them manually.

Long term (i.e., for next major game release), I think this is the best solution as this would not only solve the ammo usage problem, but also has the beneficial effect of reducing micromanagement to a degree (since you'd only have to issue orders to one unit instead of two when moving units through areas where contact was unlikely). But I am assuming this is something that we will have to wait for, since it involves a significant change to the way infantry HW teams are represented in the game. Therefore, I am hoping that some kind of simpler "patchup" solution can be done for now.

All your other ideas sound reasonable as a "for now" fix to me... if have no idea which (if any) would be easy enough to code to be doable in a CMBN patch, rather than the next game release.

[Vencini]

I'll agree with complaint #1. Acquire would be nice, but I can think of several other ways to do things that would be just fine with me:

+1 Acquire ammo for infantry units. Will be nice to acquire ammo from bearer teams with "acquire" order.

Some times, infantry units or MG units are runing low of ammo and bearer teams only give to them when they have not more ammo.

[A Canadian Cat]

Excellent suggestions YankeeDog I agree totally with your suggested solution for #2. There are several ways to make the amo sharing better between the MG team and amo bearing team. Wrek had a good suggestion too.

[Vinnart]

I agree in a perfect world that being able to acquire ammo from other units would be best. In this way a player would not be limited to ammo sharing to only members of the platoon. I had a situation where I had a mortar team out and sent an ammo bearer over from another platoon, and the mortar would not resupply from it. I am sure in reality it would.

One thing about ammo I do not understand is why the Americas have such poor resupply of 45cal. An American truck only carries 300 rounds. Meanwhile, the German truck carries 2k of 9mm. This creates some imbalance as far submachine guns go, and Tommy guns having to go into action with the rest of the team defenseless only to get shot since he alone cannot be separated from the team. I’m constantly running out of 45cal for the Thompson’s with in a few turns. I would like to see more 45cal ammo availability in the deuce n’ halfs to keep up with the MP40s.

[SlowMotion]

If units could Acquire ammo from other units, players could use ammo bearers for their main task more often: carrying ammo for fighting units. In long scenarios it would be incredibly useful if ammo could be resupplied *before* the ammo is needed most.

[Baneman]

If units could Acquire ammo from other units, players could use ammo bearers for their main task more often: carrying ammo for fighting units. In long scenarios it would be incredibly useful if ammo could be resupplied *before* the ammo is needed most.

What he said.

[YankeeDog]

One thing about ammo I do not understand is why the Americas have such poor resupply of 45cal. An American truck only carries 300 rounds. Meanwhile, the German truck carries 2k of 9mm. This creates some imbalance as far submachine guns go, and Tommy guns having to go into action with the rest of the team defenseless only to get shot since he alone cannot be separated from the team. I’m constantly running out of 45cal for the Thompson’s with in a few turns. I would like to see more 45cal ammo availability in the deuce n’ halfs to keep up with the MP40s.

Yes; this is another issue worth discussion. As I see it, there are two possibilities:

(1) .45 ACP in the game is unrealistically scarce, in Real Life U.S. units usually had plenty of .45 ACP ammo, and could therefore use their SMGs prolifically, as soldiers do in the game right now. If this is the case, .45 ACP load/supply and should be increased to accurately reflect historical conditions.

(2) Scarcity of .45 ACP in the game is realistic, and is a reasonable representation actual supply conditions as they existed in 1944. This is definitely possible -- there are disadvantages to having to supply 3 different calibers of ammo to your front line infantry units.

However, and especially if (2) above holds true, I would say that the "Ammo Scarcity Awareness" needs to be improved/added for the individual soldier AI, so that soldiers (and especially those armed with Thompsons) "know" when their ammo is running low, and adjust consumption accordingly. Right now, SMG gunners are very willing to burn their ammo on marginal targets -- While SMG behavior was supposedly adjusted some in v1.01, I still often see Thompsons opening up at ranges of 150m+ against targets in good cover. This is very long range for SMGs in general, but especially so for the .45 ACP Thompson, which shoots a relatively heavy, but also very slow and not very aerodynamically efficient bullet. Shots at 100m+ with a Thompson have substantial arc, and the shooter really has to "golf" the shots onto the target (and bear in mind that the Thompson has non-adjustable sights, set at 50 yds.)

IMHO, especially when down to their last clip or two, Thompson gunners shouldn't be burning their ammo firing at an enemy in good cover 150m+ away -- that's a job for the Squad's rifles and BAR. They should save those last couple of clips for exposed targets and/or close-range situations. Now, if the soldier has loads of ammo, perhaps golfing rounds at distant enemy should be more likely. You can also make a good argument that Green and Conscript troops perhaps should have less "scarcity awareness", and be more likely to waste ammo in marginal situations.

As it is now, when U.S. squads in mid-range situations (~100-250m range to likely or known enemy contact), I frequently split the command team off of U.S. squads and hide them or give them a short cover arc, specifically to conserve .45 ACP ammo. This is a bit of micromanaging I could really do without.

Another related issue is the way the game models squad and other unit leaders. As far as I can tell, the rate of fire for a Squad leader is about the same as for a generic private soldier with the same weapon. IRL, even in the middle of a firefight, the squad leader would have to devote at least some of his time to commanding his squad and communicating with other units nearby (adjusting formation of his squad, sending communication up to Plt. HQ, receiving orders from Plt. HQ, etc.). So his effective ROF with his personal weapon would often be lower.

[Michael Emrys]

...I would say that the "Ammo Scarcity Awareness" needs to be improved/added for the individual soldier AI, so that soldiers (and especially those armed with Thompsons) "know" when their ammo is running low, and adjust consumption accordingly.

There may be an additional factor to consider in this as well. Fully automatic weapons heat up rapidly when they are fired and excess heat is not good for the gun. Soldiers know this. I would expect this to be an inhibiting factor on firing at long range on poor targets unless there is a really compelling reason to shoot. Coupled with ammo exhaustion, I think that soldiers armed with SMGs—and especially leaders for the reasons that YD gives—would be a bit more parsimonious with their fire.

Michael