Adjust Fire - Start from Zero??

[thejetset]

I've noticed that when using direct fire with mortar teams once they get the distance and start landing some rounds on a target, the accuracy and response time is much better when you need to adjust their fire say 50m or so.

They seem to have the distance already dialed in and use this information for the next target.

For indirect fire missions, I know that the delivery time is about half when you "Adjust Fire". However, assuming the spotter has a good LOS on the target area, is the spotting also generally better (would the game formula take this into account to give a better probability of having more accurate spotting rounds)?? Does the team manning the guns already have the basic distance dialed in so long as the "Adjust Fire" mission is not too far away from the original mission??

[jhmorneau]

I agree with you. I'd like to be able to adjust fire without having to start it all again from scratch (8 minutes flat delay for a offboard US 105 mm !!!!).

It would also be great if we could use a few more options such as :

- hold fire / resume

- shift fire toward a given direction (for example 20 meters north to move the barrage over that hedge/house which blocks FO's LOS) (this would allow a rolling barrage)

- change type of ammo (switch to smoke or the other way round)

- change duration (extend it or reduce it)

- change intensity

[winkelried]

yes that's one point in the artillery model i am not too happy about too. in CMx1 you could shift fire within a certain range of the current target with a minimal delay if i remember well.

[thejetset]

yes that's one point in the artillery model i am not too happy about too. in CMx1 you could shift fire within a certain range of the current target with a minimal delay if i remember well.

Yeah! You're right!! I remember that now too. This would be GREAT. Especially for keeping the heat on an assault.

However, would this make artillery too powerful??? You would basically be able wipe out an entire advancing Infantry company with a single 75mm battery.

[MG TOW]

When artillery is totally way off target. Usually due to a bad spotter or a spotter under duress, I tried using the adjust fire hoping it would correct the coordinates. But it never seems to work that way and the fire mission continues until all rounds are expended. Better off calling a check fire and save ammo.

[Sgt Schultz]

I believe that BFC already had to "tone down" artillery modeling a tad from historically accurate behaviour to keep it from owning everything even more than it can now.

While bringing back the CM1 behaviour would be nice, it may unbalance things a bit. Would YOU like to be under the never-ending, always-adjusting bombardment??

I try to make sure I have TRPs, vet FOs and artillery, and multiple batteries... then pick my fire mission type carefully.

[thejetset]

Yeah, I think that crawling your artillery would break the balance of the game. However, does anyone have any info regarding the original post? Does "Adjust Fire" improve both the spotting round accuracy and the delay of your fire mission in certain circumstances?? ... Or does it just give you a delay bonus?

[Erwin]

One tactic I have used with some success is to order preplanned LIGHT & LONG fire with max delay (15 mins IIRC) on a location the FO cannot see at the start. Hopefully he can get to an observation point with LOS to impact area in 15 mins. (If not you can always adjust or cancel).

Once arty starts falling using LIGHT and LONG, it's generally faster to ADJUST fire to another location (within LOS this time of course) rather than wait and order up a new strike.

The reason to use LIGHT and LONG is that if the arty does the desired job quickly, or isn't needed at that location, you can ADJUST without wasting too much ammo, and there should still be enuff time left for the arty to fall on other targets.

I love this sort of realistic detail.

[Javaslinger]

I have had mixed success 'adjusting' fire... On one occasion it was deadly accurate. On another, it definitely seemed like starting from zero.

[Sakai007]

it depends on a lot of different factors from my observations during play (no real testing)

Actual FOs are better at adjusting missions then a regular HQ, and as we all know the call times can be shortened. I also believe it depends on the type of battery you are calling. Weapons like the 8 inch take a while between barrages, so it's hit or miss there. Most all rocket arty is so bad with adjusting you might as well just cancel and call a new mission.

[DavidFields]

One tactic I have used with some success is to order preplanned LIGHT & LONG fire with max delay (15 mins IIRC) on a location the FO cannot see at the start. Hopefully he can get to an observation point with LOS to impact area in 15 mins. (If not you can always adjust or cancel).

Once arty starts falling using LIGHT and LONG, it's generally faster to ADJUST fire to another location (within LOS this time of course) rather than wait and order up a new strike.

The reason to use LIGHT and LONG is that if the arty does the desired job quickly, or isn't needed at that location, you can ADJUST without wasting too much ammo, and there should still be enuff time left for the arty to fall on other targets.

I love this sort of realistic detail.

Wow, what a very interesting tactic, which makes a pretzel out of some the arty issues in CMBN. If I understand what you are doing with the tactic, I think I will understand the system better.

So, is it correct that the key issues are:

1. Since you are plotting it preplanned, you can pick anywhere on the map.

2. So you are getting the FO in line of site to....here is where I am not clear....make the fire come in acurately, to see if there is actually something there, or both? Does the perfect accuracy of pre-planned still exist if a delay is plotted?

3. The advantages of LIGHT and LONG. I was moving toward that myself, particularly as a WEGO player. The power of any arty 81mm or more means that one usually only needs a few well placed shells to cripple most guns and soft targets. So the important thing is the accuracy. If one is on target, you want to save ammo by cutting off the barrage relatively quickly.

As I read the manual, the conceptual issue for the Adjust Fire command is that it is not to be used when we often want to use it--when the asset's fire is inaccurate. Supposedly, as I read it, the FO is supposed to automatically adjust inaccurate fire, over time, if he has LOS. The Adjust Fire is only to change targets--or if the target has moved.

But, of course, viscerally that can seem counterintuitive. When I haved called in a Fire Mission, and it is coming in inaccurately, my first inclination is to use the Adjust Fire command to direct it back onto the target. Adjusting the fire of inaccurate arty is, unless someone corrects me, an incorrect use of the Adjust Fire command.

I don't know if it is a CM1 holdover that makes that feel odd, or just intrinsically confusing to some of us.

How we used Adjust Fire in CM1 now seems, in my opinion, to have been co-opted by the Linear Fire mission. Frankly, as I have said before, the Linear Fire mission feels to powerful in CM2.....

in gaming terms. Others will have to comment on the 1940s reality.

But back to your tactic, Erwin. I am trying to turn it into a plausible real-life story: "Ok, guys, we are going to start hitting that farmhouse on the map that you already meticulously calculated to barrage. Give us 15 minutes, and we will go see if something is actually there worth expending shells." ?

[DavidFields]

When artillery is totally way off target. Usually due to a bad spotter or a spotter under duress, I tried using the adjust fire hoping it would correct the coordinates. But it never seems to work that way and the fire mission continues until all rounds are expended. Better off calling a check fire and save ammo.

Right, see my previous post.

Adjust fire, perhaps counter-intuitively, is not supposedly to be used to adjust inaccurate fire.

[Sgt Schultz]

Adjust is for walking barrages that have already been dialed in. Make sure the calling unit has good LOS to both the previous and adjusted target areas. A TRP in the area helps a lot.

If you are getting bad spotting rounds or inaccurate fire missions, it is always better to cancel the mision and start over with good LOS. If the FO does not have LOS to the spotting rounds, then the entire process takes a very long time.

[Destraex1]

I would just like to add that if this game had a strategic layer things like this would not be a problem because it would be understood that the supply of artillery was coming from the strat map and would not usually be so over powering. Especailly since said strat map would allow us to cut the enemy supply and supporting arty to bits!!!

[Sakai007]

I think the first impression I got from my first run through of the CMBN demo was how deadly arty really is in this game. In CMx1, it was nice to have, but unless you were lucky wouldn't make or break a match. It was best for suppressing enemy infantry so you could move yours into range to throw grenades or gain fire superiority when the barrage lifts by having direct fire on them from multiple units. In CMBN, arty kills, period!!! Don't get me wrong, it suppresses too, but it does kill a lot more then I seem to remember in CMx1. Granted, the 1:1 infantry representation here shows every kill, and if it was that way in CMx1, maybe I would not see so much of a difference, but that's not the case. The 60mm mortar in particular is a nasty little thing, and in the previous series it was almost a joke.

Also, most AI plans I've seen tend to call in their opening barrage about 1 minute out from your start point, so if you wait a couple minutes/turns before leaving the start, it misses you completely. This is a non point in defensive scenarios, but in QBs it's hard to walk your men into arty you know is coming just to avoid being 'gamey'.

The point of all this is to support Destraex's point above, a strat level where you must dole out arty and shells to units would decrease the amount of shell you can just throw around and also, maybe, relieve some of the pressure off your forces from enemy arty. Really has my imagination running with this idea.

[Erwin]

So, is it correct that the key issues are:

1. Since you are plotting it preplanned, you can pick anywhere on the map.

>Yes<

2. So you are getting the FO in line of site to....here is where I am not clear....make the fire come in acurately, to see if there is actually something there, or both? Does the perfect accuracy of pre-planned still exist if a delay is plotted?

>The preplanned fire will come in accuratelyxregardless of delay. The point is to move the FO, (or some recon unit) to have LOS on the target area to determine if there is anything there to shoot at. If not cancel, or if the FO has LOS to a new target ADJUST to the new target.<

3. The advantages of LIGHT and LONG. I was moving toward that myself, particularly as a WEGO player. The power of any arty 81mm or more means that one usually only needs a few well placed shells to cripple most guns and soft targets. So the important thing is the accuracy. If one is on target, you want to save ammo by cutting off the barrage relatively quickly.

As I read the manual, the conceptual issue for the Adjust Fire command is that it is not to be used when we often want to use it--when the asset's fire is inaccurate. Supposedly, as I read it, the FO is supposed to automatically adjust inaccurate fire, over time, if he has LOS. The Adjust Fire is only to change targets--or if the target has moved.

But, of course, viscerally that can seem counterintuitive. When I haved called in a Fire Mission, and it is coming in inaccurately, my first inclination is to use the Adjust Fire command to direct it back onto the target. Adjusting the fire of inaccurate arty is, unless someone corrects me, an incorrect use of the Adjust Fire command.

<The FO has to be able to see the spotting rounds when using ADJUST to get accurate fire.>

I don't know if it is a CM1 holdover that makes that feel odd, or just intrinsically confusing to some of us.

How we used Adjust Fire in CM1 now seems, in my opinion, to have been co-opted by the Linear Fire mission. Frankly, as I have said before, the Linear Fire mission feels to powerful in CM2.....

in gaming terms. Others will have to comment on the 1940s reality.

But back to your tactic, Erwin. I am trying to turn it into a plausible real-life story: "Ok, guys, we are going to start hitting that farmhouse on the map that you already meticulously calculated to barrage. Give us 15 minutes, and we will go see if something is actually there worth expending shells." ?

<Exactly>

[Sakai007]

Yes Erwin, all you have up there is the truth. I also point out that we have the exact same set of fire options that are available in CMSF. Did the calling of arty change so little in 64 years that the variety of fire missions remained the same??? I don't know the particulars of what was and wasn't capable in WWII, so others will have to comment, but it doesn't feel right.

[DLaurier]

I find that off map artilery tends to fall everywhere except where you want/need it, and frequently it falls on my own troops.

On map is little better, I've seen on map guns target my own infantry off to the side rather than the enemy straight ahead.

It's almost cute watching a 150 mm infantry gun rotate away from the point you aimed at, and fire at the infantry squad behind it instead.

It's also the only time artilery is accurate.

[Erwin]

"...but it doesn't feel right."

<I agree, but I was commenting on in-game tactics that work. I do not subscribe to the opinion often heard here that CM2 is the ultimate in realism, or that it SHOULD attempt to be more realistic at the cost of being fun. I believe that CM2 and any other CM series games are xnt ENTERTAINMENT GAMES that should attempt to be FUN first, and realistic second. Verisimilitude should be the objective. Actual realism is very often NOT fun.>

[Broadsword56]

I would just like to add that if this game had a strategic layer things like this would not be a problem because it would be understood that the supply of artillery was coming from the strat map and would not usually be so over powering. Especailly since said strat map would allow us to cut the enemy supply and supporting arty to bits!!!

Great point! In the operational campaign I'm running now using a boardgame (Saint-Lo), it generated a CMBN battle where a defending German company is cut off and facing a mop-up attack by a US force. Normally the op layer would give the defender access to some defensive artillery from his parent division But in this case, those guns had already used up all their available fire missions responding to crises elsewhere on the front, doing interdiction fire, etc., so the Germans have no artillery support at all.

[i know that a scenario like this sounds like no fun at all to many of you, but you'd be amazed at how much fun some of these unbalanced and weird little missions can be when played HTH. We've often found that even with a 3:1 personnel advantage and attached armor/engineer assets, an attacking force in the Bocage can often fail to destroy/dislodge a stubborn defender who's dug-in and has plenty of mines and barbed wire, especially when required to do so with less than 35% attacker casualties.]

[akd]

I find that off map artilery tends to fall everywhere except where you want/need it, and frequently it falls on my own troops.

Are you using "emergency" for the mission type?

On map is little better, I've seen on map guns target my own infantry off to the side rather than the enemy straight ahead.

It's almost cute watching a 150 mm infantry gun rotate away from the point you aimed at, and fire at the infantry squad behind it instead.

It's also the only time artilery is accurate.

Never seen this. Do you have a save?

[StellarRat]

I don't know anyone ought to concerned about "game balance" as far as adjusting artillery. It was done as a matter of course in WW II and should work in game. Artillery is deadly against soft targets. The game ought to reflect this. Your best defense is avoiding detection, good cover and/or rapid movement. If it's too powerful just increase its value in the scenario builder don't cripple the adjust function or change the effects.

[DavidFields]

I don't know anyone ought to concerned about "game balance" as far as adjusting artillery. It was done as a matter of course in WW II and should work in game. Artillery is deadly against soft targets. The game ought to reflect this. Your best defense is avoiding detection, good cover and/or rapid movement. If it's too powerful just increase its value in the scenario builder don't cripple the adjust function or change the effects.

The issue for me is not exactly "game balance", but weapon balance--that in moving a simulated WW2 infantry company and its attached units, does it have the firepower feel of that time.

The sad reality is that we are quickly coming to the day that we could not do this test, even in theory:

Take 20 WW2 veteran infantry officers. Have the play/see a variety of CM1 scenarios, then have them play/watch CM2, and ask them which better simulates what their experiences were. Of course, they would likely first say, "neither", but I would love to question them more closely. I don't know, maybe BFC has WW2 vets, or an advisory board of them?

Of course there are books. But I think it can be easy to see what wants to see, or expects to see, from them.

Verisimilitude, exactly, Erwin. Often with the pace speeded up, so as to be more intresting, or slowed down (pause or WEGO) to be more manageable.

With the Adjust Fire command, this is just, for me, an adaptation, probably both realistic and good game play, to be much more patient in CM2 than in CM1. I find I am trying, in CMBN, to do things about twice as fast as I should, even though there seem to be getting about twice as much time as CM1. First, get excellent LOS, so that one can see those spotting rounds, wait for the fire to be dialed in, moved, to the target location by waiting for the FO to communicate to the fire asset.......then, if need be, Adjust Fire.

[DLaurier]

Are you using "emergency" for the mission type?

Never seen this. Do you have a save?

I have never used "emergency" barrage request.

I do not have a save.

[Holman]

I find that off map artilery tends to fall everywhere except where you want/need it, and frequently it falls on my own troops.

On map is little better, I've seen on map guns target my own infantry off to the side rather than the enemy straight ahead.

It's almost cute watching a 150 mm infantry gun rotate away from the point you aimed at, and fire at the infantry squad behind it instead.

It's also the only time artilery is accurate.

I saw this a lot before the patch. It has not happened to me at all since.