Digging Guns In?

[sand digger]

Did a bit of a search, nothing much at all. Other than than sand bags which you either have or not, what equipment and procedures are available to dig in or otherwise protect say AT guns? What I would like to do is have a trench nearby for the crew but this does not seem to be an option, they are stuck with the gun whatever and therefore more vulnerable than they should be. Sometimes putting a gun in a trench seems to work but other times that reduces the field of fire.

Without a simple universal field of view system this game is a biatch to setup a defence as it is, digging guns in is pretty basic stuff. Or it should be.

[winkelried]

in-game you have no real options this is true - except to use existing cover. the scenario designer has to give you possibilities in the design of the scenario:

• natural cover and man-made permanent cover like reverse hill positions (a gun should be able to kill all threats within its visibility range), hedges, bocage, walls, ditches. all of these have to be built into the map.
  
• field fortifications like foxholes, sandbags, trenches which can be placed during setup.
  

IMHO this is fair enough. Although I am missing the possibility to put an ATG into a building or a bunker.

+1 for the possibility to keep the crew of an ATG in a bunker or cover and to man the gun only after e.g. an artillery barrage - if the gun is still intact. There are some arguments to leave this out since it would yield gamey behaviour. I am not sure about this. But maybe someone may comment.

On the visibility model: I had my trouble too when starting with it ... but I am pretty much used to it now - although it surprise me sometimes (not only in a negative sense, but also in a positive one). It's a question of routine and to some extent of accepting the realities as it is modelled (and I feel that it is modelled pretty realistically).

[Statisoris]

There was a lot of community talk a while back about adding more fortifications and options for defenders. The developers haven't made any comments on the subject that Im aware of. I too would be very happy if all unit types on defense could dig in and/or camouflage during setup. I think features like this would really add more flexibility to defense.

[Sublime]

you know in response to that universal field of view thing.. I dont know exactly how it would be implemented but I'd like the ability to either

A. pick a point and be able to stretch a LOS line from that point to see visibility.

or be able to have a check LOS or something to put on waypoints in the planning phase to see if things can see certain spots..

[Mord]

There was a lot of community talk a while back about adding more fortifications and options for defenders. The developers haven't made any comments on the subject that Im aware of. I too would be very happy if all unit types on defense could dig in and/or camouflage during setup. I think features like this would really add more flexibility to defense.

I think a half wood bunker (no roof or back wall) would help with that...and a pile of debris in the same V shape as the sand bags (or even a bracket shape)...both which could be placed in buildings...would work well as hasty fortified positions.

Mord.

[Nidan1]

AT guns are sitting ducks for artillery and mortars once they are spotted.

You have to site them in the best places you can find on the map to keep them safe for as long as possible. Sandbagged trenches dont off much protection from Arty IMO, and dragging around 75mm pieces from place to place is not really an option. Forget moving 88s.

If you manage to get a few infantry kills and maybe a tank with a gun before its blasted, consider yourself very fortunate.

[sand digger]

Thanks blokes, a simple on/off map contour overlay would help heaps in getting a quick feel for the terrain you have to operate in. Similar aids have been available in other games for years. But yeh, no point in fretting if the powers that be ignore it.

As for separate trenches for gunners, it was the done thing I believe, where time permitted of course. Wait until the arty clears then up out of the trench and man the gun, if it was still there I bought the first edition of this game and am just getting around to playing it so newb. Next I want to see if the 88 is allowed to fire without being setup properly.

[winkelried]

Next I want to see if the 88 is allowed to fire without being setup properly.

And to have a prime mover :-)

[Sgt Schultz]

As a more labor intensive work-around, one could download a grid mod and then take it back out of the Z file once setup is done and file is saved.

Gun sites will improve as time progresses. The gated low bocage and hedge trick of 'thickening' treelines is still rather rare. If you are playing an older QB map, I would suggest going into the editor before playing and tweaking. Then show it to opponent and let him decide if he is OK with the map before purchasing phase.

Guns seem to work best in small depressions that have either hedge, low bocage, or a plethora of bushes at least two tiles deep in front of the gun.

It's not so much the terrain the gun itself occupies(altho that is important), but rather the terrain 1-3 tiles in FRONT of the position.

You want the enemy to have to see through a long LOS line, and then through all sorts of cr@p.

The gun on the other hand, can see through the terrain features immediately to its front much easier.

If the gun barrel is the most foward deployed visual feature of an area ... you are most likely doing it wrong.

Designers play a large part in whether there are fair or excellent gun positions on any given map. They can and do occur randomly, but should be designed in to any attack/assault map in the defender's area.

Edit -

As stated above, guns die like flies once spotted. Sell yourself dearly and take the best shots possible early. Hide with short cover arc, until someone else spots a tank. Then narrow cover arc on the target and unhide.

Once the first target is negated, then fire at everything you see before a mortar round ends your day.

[noob]

When placing guns in foxholes sometimes you can get the crew in a foxhole, i did it with a 75mm PAK with a HIDE command and it survived a 60mm mortar barrage.

[Sublime]

With AT guns and stuff in the defense, I've had a lot of luck with a combination of terrain and sometimes trenches. Instead of placing a defense in woods or in a town, I place it right behind it. Therefore blocking it from view, to be mortared or shelled. I place the guns to fire laterally and usually need at least two, to sort of cover eachother. This way the enemy has to come in and expose himself to shoot at you, and cant be supported by the HE chuckers and whatnot. If they do poke a tank into the town or w.e. it gets shot. Its all tricky though.

[sand digger]

There is a lot to it eh, plenty of good tips here which seem to work too. But the most important thing seems to be where in relation to the battle field the guns are placed, things like choke points and the direction enemy tanks are likely to come from.

I have now found that it's best to avoid frontal encounters where the tank is likely to be pointing towards the gun, and, to use a criss cross system of gun firing lines covering killing zones. Plus leave the close up stuff to be covered by the infantry with their hand carried weapons.

Love setting up a defensive system, attacking is pretty well much a do it by the numbers thing, defending is an art that really makes you think.

[noob]

Plus leave the close up stuff to be covered by the infantry with their hand carried weapons.

You can't go far wrong conforming to the logic of design, all weapons and vehicles have attributes that make them more or less effective at either short and long ranges and used offensively, defensively or both, use each weapon for what it was designed for and the percentages for success increase, that's why i always split my infantry using the Assault button as it divides SMG's from LMG's, also AT guns always need keyhole spots as they can't survive long against HE rounds incoming from different directions, and finally no turret = play defensively, turret = play offensively or defensively, once you start asking weapons and vehicles to do tasks they weren't designed for you are undermining their effectiveness.

Love setting up a defensive system, attacking is pretty well much a do it by the numbers thing, defending is an art that really makes you think.

Absolutely spot on about defending being an art, the set up phase for the defender is the only time they get to place units without the chance of getting shot at, so get that right and that's half the battle won.

Attacking tends to be one of two things, sniff about with scouts then react to the intel and improvise, or concentrate on one or more areas with pre planned fire and attempt a breakthrough at those points, then improvise, with the latter being somewhat of an art as well.

Now this might sound obvious but it's amazing how many times i see players using the wrong weapon / vehicle for the wrong task with predictable results.

[tuhhodge]

In this game ATGs are pretty much one shot weapons in my experience. Almost useless.

It seems wholly unrealistic that a Stug moving down a road into a village will spot and knock out two carefully positioned 76mm ATGs before the ATGs can fire back. But that's exactly what happens in this game.

And why can't ATGs knockout Stugs? I've had 76mm projectiles bounce off their front armour and it takes about six 57mm armour piercing shells to knock out the Stug. Wonderful pieces of kit, those...

It seems the only thing you can do with ATGs is position them round bends or for flank shots at close range. So much for doing what the AI does and site them more realistically along treelines to dominate open ground.

[winkelried]

It seems the only thing you can do with ATGs is position them round bends or for flank shots at close range. So much for doing what the AI does and site them more realistically along treelines to dominate open ground.

you should always try to get flanking shots with any AT asset (even with tanks). Even better if you can get them there in pairs.

[winkelried]

It seems wholly unrealistic that a Stug moving down a road into a village will spot and knock out two carefully positioned 76mm ATGs before the ATGs can fire back.

what was the distance? and direction of the ATGs (towards the StuG)?

[winkelried]

I

And why can't ATGs knockout Stugs? I've had 76mm projectiles bounce off their front armour and it takes about six 57mm armour piercing shells to knock out the Stug. Wonderful pieces of kit, those...

ATGs can knock-out StuGs. Any projectile may bounce off and the 57mm is a bit weak for frontal fire against StuGs (see my remark on flanking shots). Killed StuGs, Pz IV and even an occasional Tiger and Panther with both ATGs

[ZPB II]

Funny, I've had the exact opposite experience. Numerous times I've been biting my nails as rounds bounce off or penetrate my Panzers as I area fire possible ATG sites since I can't spot them.

In one game in particular (RT TCP/IP) I was surprised when my opponent asked what the hell has been shooting at his Panthers for the last 30 minutes. It was a 57mm ATG in a dip in the ground, behind some trees. Thought he had spotted it but apparently it was just random area fire hitting near it occasionally.

[tuhhodge]

Chaps, this is just my experience of the game. And apologies for my earlier rant. I spent ages setting up the defensive positions and have a 4 week old baby. You can imagine my stress levels when I finally get to sit down in front of the computer...

The Stugs were about 200m away, frontal shot with a 76mm ATG.

The distance was less with the 57mm and they did gradually start knocking out the Stugs.

The point about positioning the ATGs for flanking shots is noted.

[sand digger]

Flank, flank and flank some more. There is a lot of difference in getting spotted plus of course your shots are more likely to be effective if you set your guns up to flank shot, enfilade I think is the tech term. By following this practice I have found that some AT guns can kill and fire multiple shots yet still survive the entire game.

[thejetset]

If you can't get a STuG in a 57mm ATG's sight ... they make GREAT sniper guns for hitting Germans a long range.

I'm in a H2H game right now where I have a ATG sitting on a hill deep inside of cover aiming over at another hill about 600m away. It's sniper heaven. And at that range, the ATG nails MGs before they can suppress.

You've got to use ATG's correctly and keyhole with them or put them where their range is at their advantage. Put them in DEEP. Don't put them at the font line where you will only get one shot ... if you're lucky.

Also, if you're opponent is nailing your ATG with mortar rounds or arty ... that's less stuff that is coming down on your infantry. .... This can also be an advantage as long as you haven't pinned your entire defense on that ATG.

[sand digger]

The last battle I tried was so arranged that there were no decent defensive AT gun positions available at all, none. And I looked, hard. So there was no choice but to locate them frontally where, predictability, they were all knocked out at first contact. One by a buttoned up Sherman moving at speed several hundred meters away which spotted the unfired gun behind cover and hit it on the run first shot. Damm, who needs lasers.

So the thing is sometimes it is just impossible to locate your AT gun effectively, depends on the terrain etc.

[Sublime]

Actually 57mm AT guns are one of my favorite AT weapons. They come organic in a US Inf. Battalion, and I use them in at least pairs. They suffer from the lack of HE shells, but the price is right. From a distance they're very hard to spot, and they'll kill most anything the Germans got, at least from the flanks. And plenty from the front.

Not to mention you can ping off tigers and panthers and at least degrade their ability to fight if nothing else.