The Steppenwulf

Thank you Steve for taking the time to respond to all the points. It is appreciated!

Where does Steve state that customers can get a refund? Moreover where does it state in Bf's sales policy that customers are entitled to a refund? Yes I think we've gone over this earlier in the thread and that is why I am arduously making the point that there are deficiencies in the way this whole matter has been handled. It's simply a crap way to do business. Here's how BF can put that right in future: i) sort out the payment system so there is capability for 'delayed capture' ...or ii) amend the sales policy to reflect capacity for refund during the preorder period An acknowledgement of this would cover all the points.

If you were to state that it won't be ready until 2019, that makes a big diff in practical terms about how many people will cancel their order. Stating that the game is days rather than months away might yield a different response. Either way the present position is that you are holding customer's money for an indefinite period of time! Do you not feel as a company that there is some responsibility that comes with taking money from customers as prepayment? Especially that is, when you had initially provided an indication of the release window, which has now been exceeded?

1) There is no problem with not committing to a release window... so why did you offer one? You made a rod for your own back by doing so - don't blame customers for not being 'rational' as a result. 2) Opening up for preorders, when the customer is not actually charged until the game is released (as many companies do) is a perfectly acceptable practice. However currently you have customers money in your back account with no update about receipt of the goods ..... and you do not recognise that this is a problem? This is not 'irrational' on the part of the customer to be slightly irked about your lack of consideration regarding this issue!

The trollers are those who cannot assimilate basic facts and knowledge but persist in failed arguments. Or else they offer snide comments because they realise they have no effective counter arguments. You have demonstrated that you fall perfectly into both these categories

Exactly! Prepayments are generally used to generate income for a business in advance of shipping. This allows the company to meet overheads, such as staff wages and prevent a cash flow problem arising. BF are not offering prepayment discount as a kind gesture - it benefits the company in its development of the product. How naive to think otherwise! "Suing" BF- doh!! What contract law is effectively supporting is a buyers right to seek a refund from a seller if delivery of the goods within a reasonable period fails. I never thought I'd ever feel this way with BF, but I am very close myself to requesting refund on SF2, though not because of the delivery issue. It is in part because of BF's continuing failure to provide an update about the lapsed release window and being forced to check back in to find out what is going on, and having done so, I read yet more dismissive, intolerant and disrespectful responses (from the same defenders of BF) to the valid views and concerns expressed on this thread and elsewhere on the forum. Worse, it doesn't help that they repeatedly misunderstand or demonstrate a lack of listening skills and reasoned thinking when compiling their responses. And whether BF like it or not, these members are perceived as representing the position of BF and speak with authority about the company. If anything is badly needed going forward, it's that BF require a competent and strong communications person to represent them, and then those members that are so disastrously filling the vacuum presently, can take a well-deserved back seat!

The biggest difference being that MMP don't actually charge until the product is ready to ship. Please research the facts before using something (inaccurately) to make a point about how BF operate! I think I made it quite clear in my previous posts that when a company take your money they are entering into a legal contract to deliver the product and an approximate timescale for delivery forms a part of that bargain. This is why MMP do not take pre-order cash until ready to ship; there is no legally binding undertaking at that stage and the customer is free to cancel at any time. This is the reason why. Returning to your earlier post, this isn't about trolling Vet! I'm stating things to you as facts, I'm not inciting aggravated responses to my posts! I'm all in favour of BF not offering release windows, but when they do this they cannot also ask customers to effect transactions until a shipping window is indicated. The offers around SF2 is the difference against (all as far as I am aware) previous CM products on this occasion.

As stated your facts were incorrect; you drew reference to the DEMO with regard to the WINDOW, and BF statement was explicitly in reference to the GAME. That undermined your position entirely. If you cannot see that then it's impossible to reason with you. As previously stated over and over again (some people do seem to have grasped this) it isn't about a specific date, it's simply about good customer relations to provide an update when it becomes clear that the window is going to have to shift. If I hadn't paid approx £100 then maybe I wouldn't care, but if the window has moved to Christmas I have a right to know that this the case, request a refund and use the money on family xmas gifts instead. You seem to to jump from one wild assertion to another - all without any factual basis. Unless you've been following my reading and posting on these forums you know nothing about me! And if you had, you'd know that your assertions are wrong! Again this is blurring the truth to suit your assertions. In fact BF do give updates and they do offer windows for game release. I could trawl through the forums and offer you many, many examples of this. However, and to reiterate yet again, this issue is simply about communications. Nonetheless Steve, himself in May (again I've already posted a link to this in an earlier post in this very thread), apologised for not providing a more recent update. If you are right and BF think that updates are either not important, counter productive, or adverse to BF's business practice, then please explain why he provided a comprehensive update on; 1) SF2, 2) the situation with the patches, 3) Black Sea, 4) Red Thunder, and, 5) The new website. AND MOREOVER, he apologised for not having done this much sooner!

Your argument is weak because it is factually incorrect. The full game release window is end of Sept not the demo: https://www.battlefront.com/ Secondly if a customer has paid for something they have a right to know when to reasonably expect to receive the product. If BF can't make the window, that's fine (we understand) but update us with the revised window. E.g. is it weeks or months, or next summer? (EDIT: And we are not even onto the issue re overdue patch releases) Expecting the Developer to offer a simple update is not unreasonable when the customer has parted with cash for a product not yet received! But we are going over old ground already established in this thread.... The only reason this thread is continuing is because of weak retorts from those trying to defend BF, that then bring posters back to reiterate the same inescapable truths about this whole matter.

Paradoxical statement!! Either they did provide an indication or they didn't! Regardless, preorder implicitly requires some indication for release, otherwise it renders the concept of preorder totally meaningless. For arguments sake, if it were "leaked" that the game won't be released till next summer, how many here would opt to have their money back for now and we'll "preorder" again next Easter instead (or perhaps not at all)?!!?

Oh I agree, I thought I'd been quite clear (the sources posted), that it's simply the neglectful communications, to which I'm referring, and Steve himself seems to concur could be better!

Here: And further acknowledgement in the same thread: http://community.battlefront.com/topic/126834-a-long-delayed-update/ It seems that you are all out of step with your master!!

Thanks for refocusing this essential point! Spot on observation that every post that digresses from this only serves as a straw man for BF apologists to knock down and denigrate. They feed on this! Equally concerning is conflating kickstarter campaigns with preordered games when they are totally different things; there is likely little if no legal liability attached to kickstarter funded games, however preordered games are still a product that the customer anticipates, it's bound by contract law and if the dev fails to deliver the customer is entitled to a refund. I must state that I have enough confidence in BF to feel certain that this won't happen. And I'm more than willing to support these fantastic games with my hard earned cash present and future. But all this kind of talk wouldn't happen if BF just communicated at key times to let the community know what's going on. If the games not ready till xmas - fine, I'll drop by again then, or perhaps you can send me an email to let me know when the demo is out! Keeping the average customer happy should not be hard work, but this really is basic stuff. I hope that Steve recognises this when he surfaces and dissipates all frustrations with a simple apology (as he did in July). It's quickly accepted, but more importantly some recognition from him about this issue would vindicate our perspective, and moreover, perhaps then the 'apologists' might reflect a bit on their own ill-considered reactions which are misplaced, unkind, patronising and sometimes just verge on plain arrogance!

Really when customers paid $120 in advance they have no right to be notified or updated when they might actually receive the product?? You really should rethink that!! To be honest it's getting to the point where I'm thinking that I ought to request a refund because I could spend the money on something else that I can enjoy right now, not in 6 months time. I don't think that's an unreasonable regret on the part of the customer either!

Are you sure you haven't toggled smoke on and off across the modes. It won't be the difficulty level, more like something inadvertent you've activated. Smoke effects, trees ..I 'd say they are prime candidates. Refer to hot keys in the menu for the respective toggles.

WelI I wasn't thinking about H2H play in my enquiry since I was aware that there are some innovative game contraptions implemented that might render H2H altogether inappropriate. If that's not actually the case and if I'm right to infer something more from your statement above; is it that there could be some specific rules introduced for the Red player in a hypothetical H2H game that would restrict how the game plays out; ie rules that might specifically dictate how hot the game develops?

I've yet to get round to playing this scenario but out of interest for when I do; I wondered how those that have played, feel about this potentially played as a coop game (with the implicit slight limitation that saved PBEM moves has in this respect). I can just imagine that, with all the advanced planning, record keeping and coordinated action that this scenario appears to demand, how joint-planning (with a clear division of forces under command naturally) might enhance game play even greater than MOS has already achieved. Indeed has anyone actually tried playing this as a coop already? Thoughts, views?

Indeed. By the time a newcomer has played all the demos everything should be patched or at least SF2 will be released! I'm coming at this from a position like most players (I would suppose) where personal spending funds are not inexhaustible - most people cannot just buy everything. Information about the game's "limitations" (including any issues) is overwhelmingly important in the process of making a choice. I rarely purchase games straight off the bat for this very reason. Anyway I digress... so where are the demos at?

You got to love the appeal to "honesty" there! Well I'm not in BF's pockets and cannot be termed a fan boi, so here's a proper rationale for you. The CM2 games are never on sale - that's BF's policy. So it doesn't matter whether you buy a game now or in six months, you'll still have to ante up! Except that of course you will miss out on 6 months play (I think that's Ian's argument). But then why would anyone want to own a game that does not play how it should play because it needs patching, may as well wait till it's patched right? Maybe you'll fall into the CM game camp that doesn't think it makes any difference (who must be obviously missing something seriously major about the game, or are being completely disingenuous), or else you find it's a game breaker (when you come across it) and find the game unplayable as a result. Well you got to ask yourself one question... is the risk for the cost of a premium priced game worth it? Since the issue seems not to affect Black sea or likely Shock Force 2 (though we'll have to wait and see about the latter), it's clear that the newcomer would be better off playing safe and investing in the games that do work (as we expect) in version 4 at first, and just hang fire until the ww2 games are patched! On the basis of the reasoning outlined, I think that's sensible advice and that's the advice I would give to a friend. I'm confident many others here would agree.

What no one has mentioned is that the ww2 games latest engine version needs patching and for many players (including myself) is actually unplayable until patched - no I kid you not! We've been waiting for the patches for over a year and it's quite likely that Shock Force 2 will be released before we get the patches. Furthermore, with the latest ww2 game versions I don't think you can do, what some have resorted to, which is revert back to the earlier game iteration. For this reason, if I were advising myself right now, I'd buy a modern title and look at the ww2 titles once the patches are released... could be waiting a long time with BF yet... who knows!?

Yes but you'll have to do the modelling work and texturing yourself: see here for the tools:-

UPDATE:- Problem resolved now

Log in on new portal won't accept my email: d.brackenburygreen@hotmail.co.uk I get: d.brackenburygreen@hotma Tried to register a ticket but it does the same, so I'm stuck, hence this. Thanks in advance

Yes I saw typos too : Base Module/Overview - "orignal " x4

I absolutely love the in-depth explanation provided about the game engine and game mechanics. It's under features in the menu if you haven't already read it. I'm really sure this will go a long way to helping promote the quality of the product and boost sales. I get excited just reading it! Great stuff Battlefront!!