Rokko

Another thing Browning pointed out was how keen the suspects/witnesses (i.e. ther German policemen) were on mentioning how often Jews were betrayed sort of as a way to "spread the guilt more evenly". But I don't agree with you here. Weren't people in Poland upset about Lanzmann's portrayal of Polish antisemitism as well? I don't know how the AK was portrayed in the series because I haven't watched it completely, and I don't know how antisemitic the AK in particular was. But I do know that anti-Semitism was deeply rooted not only in Germany but essentially everywhere in Eastern Europe and other places as well. So it is not wrong to portray that I'd say. It would be wrong to portray Poles as more anti-semitic than the Germans or to portray the Poles as somehow responsible for the Holocaust. Wether some Poles individually contributed to it (directly or indirectly) or not is irrelevant to it I think.

I don't think that is a widely accepted idea here, though I'm not entirely sure to be honest. I believe it is more accepted in Austria, though.

You can take a look at it yourself, it is a very big file though so I won't directly link it as image: http://s1270.photobucket.com/user/oKKKor/media/CambesWIP_zps07d4a823.jpg.html

I've begun working on a Cambes-en-Plaine and Galmanche map, which will be very important for the I./25 battles. But the 1947 are not very good and and modern maps/satellite images can't be used because the village has totally changed since 1944. There are some features mentioned in all reports from participants of the battles I can just not identify in the aerial photographies like some sort of big park surrounded by high (3m) stone wall or one or more chateaus. So I thought I'd ask here. Maybe someone has a book or some other source I don't know about which has a map or even better aerial pictures (like Bloody Buron).

I would really suggest you (or any person for that matter) to pick up Ordinary Men if you wish to understand better what might causes such behaviour patterns. Also, if you happen to speak German you can find a highly interesting lecture here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-A6N-KyP8U No subtitles unfortunately. So much of human behaviour is just situational and dependent on what is considered normal by the society you live in which is also why you often find persons who commited such horrible acts can be loving husbands, caring fathers and really just good citizens without ever resorting to violence ever again afterwards. Here you have another documentary on a particular case, unfortunately only in German again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyUoAl1WI3w

While it is correct that there was no real coercion into commiting war crimes I do not think you can dismiss the effect of peer pressure so easily. I have read Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning and it has that now famous story of the CO (a major) of a German police batallion used in an extermination role in Poland offering any of his men how felt he was not up to the task to step forward and be excused from having to shoot and only a handful of men out of some 500 did actually step forward. And that situation implies huge peer pressure if you ask me. That old story you often hear from German veterans that "They'd be put to wall as well" had they not complied is proven false of course since no man has ever faced severe punishment for not taking part in executions, war crimes, etc. (though I don't think that means that everyone knew they would not be punished). On the other hand, people who generally refused to join the army or follow orders in general did get incarcerated or sentenced to death (Jehova's witnesses for instance). Generally I just believe the political aspect is overstated. I don't think politics or political believes did matter all that much in day-to-day life just as they don't today (especially if that life was a potentially very short soldier's life on the front lines). It's all about socialisation and the society you live in, wether that is a Communist, Nazi or Democratic society. And the problem with pre-WW2 German society was that it treasured duty and commitment so awfully much. Nazi ideology was just born out of that. I recently read a statement by von Rundstedt where he said he would never have participated in the July 20 plot because the outcome of the war would have been the same which left me absolutely stunned. He is right of course, Germany would still have suffered total defeat but he could have potentially spared the lives of millions of Germans as well as the lives of millions of Russians, Poles, Jews, etc. but that's just how people were back then. Also, make no mistake, I do not try to excuse what they did, I just try to understand why they did it and how they came to be the way they were.

Well considering literally all Eastern Front threads in this forum so far ending in an Neonazi debate and going down the toilet eventually I find it quite appopriate Now with Steiner14 gone, maybe we can have an EF thread that stays on course.

Well for me I try to see them as human beings just like me and everyone else. Compassion really. If I see poor Johan crack under heavy depth charge barrage in Das Boot I feel just as sorry for as I do for Adrien Brody in The Pianist after his family got sent to Treblinka. Society is just too big for most individuals to resist really I think. Unless you are really an exceptional person how can you resist against living in and fighting for a violent and criminal regime. So how can I condem an ordinary person for fullfiling the role the society he lives in has considered him for. I can't really. I can't condem a young German man in his early twenties at best for being ordered into an execution unit as I can't condem a young African boy in Liberia commiting the most heinous atrocities (just recently I watched a documentary about 90% of the Liberian population have eaten human flesh). And honestly I think there is some sort of self-rightousness in most "Western" contries (i.e USA, Britain, Canada, etc.) that comes from "being the good guys" (which is right of course to some degree) which distorts the view on many events in history and also in present time.

Shouldn't be a problem for an open-minded person who's ability to feel empathy and compassion for fellow human beings is not blinded by patriotism and nationalism. Edit That may sound a little more harsh than intended. I guess it's normal to feel more empathy with people you share the same language, culture, heritage with. But that shouldn't exclude the same for persons who were enemies to other persons a long time ago. And I generally don't like patriotism a lot.

One problem with those German war movies is that they are way too political imho. A movie were that worked was Downfall. In Das Boot it is ok, too. There's the nazi 1WO but it's not too much in your face. Actually Das Boot is my favourite war movie of all times. Another good German war movie that hasn't been mentioned is Stalingrad.

Pretty bad movie in my opinion. Not as bad as the usual German TV movie but still bad. Unrealistic, apologetic, anachronistic, full of clishés etc etc. Calling it a German Band of Brothers like in some German media is a pretty ridiculous claim, and I don't even like BoB

Maybe it's two Churchills glitched together?

Wait those are actually light mortars. They are new right?

Thanks guys, Thats how I figured things went as well, I just couldn`t explain the inaccuracy of the Canadian maps. But I made an overlay in GE with an IGN map overlay and GE contour lines lined up pretty well with the map contour lines although the map was more accurate of course

Hi folks, For my Caen Area mega map I've been comparing the contour lines of some of the historical maps posted in the 12th SS campaign thread with the data I've used which is essentially from Google Earth and modern day maps by IGN and I've come across some pretty severe differences. The general heights are the same of course, but where the contour lines is pretty different. For instance the historical map has a 80m contour line marked as objective for an entire batallion, where according to the modern maps there is nothin the like there. So could it be that things have changed that much in the last 70 years or are the military maps from 1944 just inaccurate? I believe I've once heard that the US Army maps of the Hurtgen Forrest were very inaccurate and didn't have all the deep valleys marked, which supposedly caused great problems during the fighting there, so maybe that's a likely option than great changes in the landscape in less than a century

http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/history/battlehonours/northwesteurope/theorne.htm Here you can read what casualties the companies of the HLI suffered during Operation Charnwood. They weren't taken off the frontline though. They suffered 265 casualties and recieved 195 replacements two days later. For German units it was probably worse. Once their divisional replacement batallions were depleted they recieved no further reinforcements and often fought to near extinction because there were no reserves.

I just tried. Tanks can cross any ditch thats shallower than 5m. It looks ridiculous but they can just race through. 5m deep and they can cross. but 5m looks a little ridiculous, too. Another thing is, infantry can't move into 5m deep ditches either. My solution would be a 4m deep ditch with Heavy Wood tile. That way infantry can, but tanks can't cross. BTW I would assume the defenders would know a way through the mines behind the AT ditch. There was a website where I got all the 1944 aerial photos the first that also had great descriptions of the battles on July 8th, including information which company was in which town and how many prisoners were taken, but I just can't find it anymore. Edit Lol I just had an sudden idea what to search for and promply found it: http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/history/battlehonours/northwesteurope/theorne.htm While 25th PGR suffered heavily, the Canadian batallions on the offensive also suffered heavily. Also, I would advise you to add lots and lots of battle damage to the base map. I tried to portray the area as how it would have looked before any battles. By July 8th Buron had changed hands 4 times and was shelled for about a month. So lots of craters, destroyed building and rubble. Also depleted Germans. I don't know how many replacements 25th PGR would have recieved until July, but probably not too many.

I suppose these symbols represent a single ATG somewhere along that sunken road. On my map it is unfortunately not sunken, because sunken roads look weird in the game unless there are no elevation differences along their way. Besides, I just read the AT ditch in front of Buron was 12 feet wide and 15 feet deep. So one action spot in width and about 5m deep. Yours looks a little to shallow.

baron, here is an excerpt from the 25th PGR's war diary I've found at axishistory: “8.7.1944 Kloster Ardenne o5.45 Uhr Report from III./A.R. 12 : “Three red and two white flares. The enemy artillery barrage is lifted.” o6.20 Uhr Report from II./25 : “Nothing special to report.” o6.4o Uhr Report from II./25 : “Artillery fire landing behind our positions. Fighter planes attacking la Folie, enemy firing smoke shells.” o6.4o Uhr Report from III./25 : “Enemy breakthrough at 7./25.” o6.5o Uhr Oberst Höhne, Art.Rgt.155, right flank, requested artillery support. o6.55 Uhr To our request for a status from II./25, Hstuf. Schrott replied, “Wait.” o7.13 Uhr Sudden concentration of rocket fire south of Cambes. o7.17 Uhr Bombs falling on the positions of III./25. o7.2o Uhr Report from Oberst Höhne: “Art.Rgt. 155 adjusting artillery fire. The situation on the right flank is not quiet.” o7.25 Uhr Orders to Werfer and A.R. 12: “Fire immediate barrage in front of the positions of II./25.” o7.28 Uhr Report from Hauptmann Steger, III./25: “Enemy attack on 7th Company repulsed.” o7.35 Uhr Heavy enemy artillery fire falling on the positions of III./25. o7.37 Uhr Fighter planes attacking Ardenne Abbey. o7.38 Uhr Orders of the Division commander: “Special alert on the right flank.” o7.45 Uhr Enemy attacking II./25 with tanks. II./25 requests artillery fire in front of their positions. o8.2o Uhr Report to Ia : “Heavy enemy artillery fire in the sector II./25.” o8.27 Uhr Radio report from III./25 : “Breakthrough between the 9th and 10th companies.” Orders to Artillerie and Werfer : “Fire a barrage on and north of Buron.” o8.33 Uhr Heavy enemy artillery fire in the sector of II./25. Tanks attacking 6./25. Situation of I./25 not yet known. o8.35 Uhr Enemy tanks rolled over the battalion command post III./25. o8.37 Uhr Report from III./25 : “Enemy attacked with tanks.” o8.45 Uhr Enemy tanks broke through the 5th and 7th companies. o9.o9 Uhr Enemy infantry and tanks broke through at Mâlon. Enemy tanks in front of the command post. No reports from the companies. o9.25 Uhr Forward observer from the Werfer-Abteilung reports: “Five heavy enemy tanks have driven into Buron.” o9.33 Uhr Rockets firing on Buron. Rockets landing between the enemy tanks. o9.34 Uhr Four enemy tanks moving from Buron to Cambes. o9.35 Uhr Report from 2nd platoon 13./25 : “Enemy tanks have rolled over the companies of II./25 and are milling about 200 - 300 meters behind our original front lines. The companies are back in their positions. More enemy tanks are in front of our lines.” o9.45 Uhr Report from III./25 : “Enemy tanks broke through the 9th Company and are rolling over the positions right to left, stopping short of the battalion command post. Two anti-tank guns were destroyed.” o9.45 Uhr Radio signal from II./25 : “Mâlon is still in our hands.” o9.48 Uhr Report from III./25 : “9th Company overrun. Where are our tanks?” o9.58 Uhr Fighter planes attacking Ardenne Abbey. o9.59 Uhr Rocket fire on Buron. The salvos landed too wide to the northwest. The order to fire came from Buron.” 1o.oo Uhr One reserve platoon sent towards the north to the front. 1o.3o Uhr Orders on III./A.R. 12 : “Fire barrages on Buron.” Also rocket fire again observed on Buron. Artillery fire on the east end of Gruchy requested by III./25. Orders from commander, SS-Pz.Rgt. 12 to SS-Ostuf. v.Ribbentrop: “Clear out the penetration between Gruchy and Buron.” 1o.32 Uhr Report from III./25 : “Tank support urgently needed, otherwise impossible to hold positions.” 1o.33 Uhr Rockets fired a barrage on Buron. 1o.35 Uhr One enemy tank in flames west of Buron. 1o.5o Uhr Report from II./25 : “Enemy in St.Contest.” 1o.53 Uhr Heavy enemy artillery fire falling on Ardenne Abbey. 1o.58 Uhr Report from III./25 : “Our tanks are on the northern edge of Authie.” 11.o1 Uhr Two of our tanks are in the northern edge of Authie. Enemy firing artillery barrages on the east edge of Buron.” 11.o5 Uhr Two enemy tanks destroyed near Buron. 11.1o Uhr Rockets fired a salvo at the depression between Vieux - Cairon. 11.13 Uhr Ardenne Abbey received a direct hit from enemy artillery. 11.15 Uhr Report from forward observer - Werfer : “One of our tanks and a half-track burning 200 meters before Buron.” 11.25 Uhr Battalion “Olboeter” (III./26) and Company “Ribbentrop” (3./Pz.Rgt.) attacked by 12 fighter planes. 11.28 Uhr Report from III./25 : “To hold the command post, our tanks must get here in a hurry.” 11.32 Uhr Report from III./25 : “9th and 10th companies overrun. 10 enemy tanks in the depression in the direction of Buron.” 11.43 Uhr Rocket fire on Buron. The fire landed on target. More fire on Buron. 11.45 Uhr Report to Ia : “Ammunition for our artillery is urgently needed.” 12.o3 Uhr Enemy artillery fire on the road Caen - Bayeux at Francqueville Hill. 12.o8 Uhr Report from III./A.R. 12 : “Eight enemy tanks in Epron.” 12.16 Uhr Rocket fire north of St.Contest. Good results. Bursts of flame observed. 12.17 Uhr Report from III./A.R. 12 : “Enemy in battalion strength with tank support 1 kilometer south of Epron on the march in the direction of Caen.” 12.2o Uhr Enemy artillery fire east of Cussy and north of Bilot. Infantry attack alarm southwest of the road Caen - Bayeux. 12.25 Uhr Report from II./25 : “Please hurry with relief. Mâlon is still in our hands. Enemy has broke through our positions. Unable to hold off attack. Evacuation of the wounded no longer possible.” 12.3o Uhr Enemy has broken through the 6th Company. Company has relocated. Hstuf. Tiray and Ustuf. Willing dead. Enemy tanks pushed through the 5th and 6th companies and are rolling over the positions from left to right. Two tanks destroyed in close combat. From the 7th Company no further report. Enemy tanks already in St.Contest. 12.35 Uhr Four enemy tanks moving south out of Buron. 12.4o Uhr Enemy trucks and cars already in Galmanche. 12.41 Uhr Report from III./25 : “Enemy tanks in front of battalion command post.” 12.5o Uhr Between 09.00 - 10.00 hours enemy tanks attacked 16./25. SS-Untersturmführer Werner killed. 12.53 Uhr Four tanks on the road Buron - Authie, southern entrance to Buron. 12.58 Uhr Strong attack alarm at III./25. 12.59 Uhr Artillery fire from southwest edge of Buron. 13.1o Uhr Report from III./25 : “Help!” 13.12 Uhr Smokescreen east of Buron. 13.14 Uhr Radio signal from III./25 : “When is help coming?” 13.15 Uhr Enemy tanks rolling past Buron direction 9th Company positions. The 16./25 withdraws. 13.17 Uhr Six enemy tanks in front of command post III./25. 13.2o Uhr Four of our tanks moving in the direction from Buron to Cussy. 13.26 Uhr Radio signal from III./25 : “When is help coming?” Heavy enemy artillery fire on Cussy. Enemy infantry in the garden in front of command post III./25. Radio signal from II./25 : “Where is the relief?” 13.27 Uhr Radio signal from II./25 : “Where is the relief and tanks?? Enemy infantry 200 meters in front of command post. Curtain-fire urgently needed.” 13.28 Uhr Heavy enemy artillery fire east of Cussy. Enemy tanks have laid down smoke from east to west in front of Cussy. 13.35 Uhr II./25 reports : “Between Battalion and Abteilung “Prinz” (II./Pz.Rgt.) no more contact.” 13.43 Uhr Division commander at regimental command post for briefing. 13.5o Uhr Rocket fire on Buron. Tanks pulling back into the woods east of Buron. Our artillery firing on Buron. 14.12 Uhr Question from III./25 : “When is help coming?” 14.13 Uhr Radio message from SS-Standartenführer Meyer to III./25 : “We are doing all we can!! Meyer.” Order of the division commander to Corps Artillerie : “Fire on Buron.” 14.2o Uhr Report from I./25 : SS-Ostuf. Schümann killed.” 14.28 Uhr Friendly and enemy machine gun fire heard coming from Buron. 14.32 Uhr Heavy enemy artillery fire landing on Ardenne Abbey and Cussy. 14.52 Uhr Our rockets firing on Buron. 15.2o Uhr Report from III./25 : “We have been overrun by enemy infantry.” 15.21 Uhr Report from 13./25 : “Enemy tanks moving from Authie in the direction Ardenne Abbey.” 15.3o Uhr Enemy artillery harassing fire between St.Germain - Ardenne Abbey. 15.38 Uhr Enemy tank burning west of Francqueville. 15.45 Uhr Our rockets and artillery firing on Buron. 15.5o Uhr III./25 does not answer anymore. 15.55 Uhr Enemy artillery firing air bursts on the road Francqueville - Caen. 16.o5 Uhr Heavy enemy artillery fire on Cambes. 16.1o Uhr Very heavy enemy artillery fire heard coming from the direction of Buron and Authie. 16.35 Uhr Report from neighbor unit to the right : “Epron taken by the enemy.” 16.4o Uhr Rocket fire on Authie. One English tank burning. 16.5o Uhr Orders to III./A.R. 12 : “Supporting fire on Authie.” 16.52 Uhr Enemy artillery fire on Francqueville, rounds landed too short. 17.07 Uhr Rocket fire on Authie. 17.12 Uhr Enemy firing smoke between Cussy and St.Contest, also Franqueville. 17.17 Uhr Enemy artillery barrages on la Folie. Artillery fire on Ardenne Abbey and the area between the Abbey and St.Germain. 17.22 Uhr Orders to Werfer-Abt. : “Fire on Authie and the hill to the northwest.” 18.25 Uhr Report from II./25 : “Enemy attacking the left flank. Can no longer hold Mâlon.” 18.32 Uhr Orders to II./25 : “Positions must be held until nightfall, then withdraw to regiment CP.” 18.45 Uhr Radio report to Ia : “26 enemy tanks in front of I./25 have broken through in Cussy.” 18.48 Uhr Radio report to Ia : “Enemy artillery barrages since 18.00 hours landing on Ardenne Abbey and Cussy.” Radio report to division commander and commander, SS-Pz.Rgt.12 : “Enemy attacking road fork St.Germain. All available tanks to there.” 19.38 Uhr Orders to III./A.R. 12 : “Fire to the last round.” 19.4o Uhr To Ia : “Machine gun ammunition, close combat material and tank munitions urgently needed. Wünsche.” 2o.55 Uhr Regiment staff established new command post on the north edge of Caen. 21.25 Uhr Question to Ia : “Is contact between our tanks and the I.25 and II./25 confirmed?” 22.5o Uhr No more sounds of battle can be heard in the Regiment's sector. Casualties of SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 25 on July 8, 1944 - Killed: 5 officers, 19 NCOs, 86 enlisted. Wounded: 1 officer, 20 NCOs, 116 enlisted. Missing: 8 officers, 43 NCOs, 410 enlisted.” The losses are most likely too high. The divisional history states 410 as total casualty figure for 7th & 8th July, more likely being around 500 because reports from one batallion were not included. Either way it gives an impression what kind of carnage must have unfolded there on these days and either way it must have been a black day for the regiment.

Agreed. To be honest, the workload would have been way too much to finish in a reasonable time anyways. Essentially it would have required two more maps the size of the one I've already made. And that already took an effin' long time to make. The I decided to go now requires only a few more and much smaller maps. Also allows for some smaller actions, instead of all batallion-sized battles.

Have you changed time of year or something? In the first screenshots the bushes were all yellow and red.

Well according to my information 2nd Batallion/The Royal Ulster Regiment of 9th British Brigade was moving into Cambes-en-Plaine Nort-East of Saint-Contest about the same time Waldmüller's I. Btl. was attacking it. Historically that assault failed, but apparently 12th SS later did get into Cambes and was doing some night-infiltrations of the Cambes Wood further to the North (Le Mesnil if I'm not mistaken). The 7th Cdn Bde. was facing Mohnke's 26th Regiment exclusively and is thus irrelevant to what I try to portray. Edit I've downloaded Fields of Fire and Bloody Buron now. The maps of the Buron defenses are great! I hope noob reads here as well I also have a fairly accurate picture now of which Allied batallions stood were on June 7th and can now put together a more realistic campaign sequence I think. Would have been nice to see the beaches or the Douvres radarstation, but Allied counter-attacks and some small nighttime infiltrations will have to do

Thanks a bunch. The map I posted is actually from The Victory Campaign, but I haven't read it yet Gonna check out Fields of Fire some day, my book budget for this already used up because I ordered two volumes from Military Press on the organization of I. SS-Panzerkorps. I am a little in doubt right now. There's no way KG Meyer could have advanced much further than they did in reality with three Allied infantry Brigades in front of them. Could have made for some interesting battles like relieving the Douvres Radar station or even reaching the beaches, but that is just too much a stretch of imagination, unless I decided not to stick to close to reality for this, which is not really how I want to do things.

Found a good map, might interest others as well. So KG Meyer had 3 Infantry Brigades and at least on Armoured Regiment in front of them. The 8th and 9th Canadian and the 9th British Brigade. Their composition: 8th Cdn: - The Queen's Own Rifles of Canada - Le Régiment de la Chaudière - The North Shore (New Brunswick) Regiment 9th Cdn: - The Highland Light Infantry of Canada - The Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders - The North Nova Scotia Highlanders 9th Brit: - 2nd/The Lincolnshire Regiment - 1st/The King's Own Scottish Borderers - 2nd/The Royal Ulster Rifles

Thank you all. All input is appreciated and every bit of information is evaluated.