DreDay

I personally tend to agree with your assessment... but it's a matter of faith and nothing more; I just wanted to point out that it is a bit controversial and should not be automatically assumed to be 100% truthful... Then again, that's about the most first-hand information about Russian Ops in Donbas that we have seen in the printed media; so what choice do we have but to take it seriously?

I am sorry Steve, I just fail to see your point here. I am not a historian nor was I planning to start a debate about UNA/OUN or Khatyn or Kholodomor. I personally have no interest in debating those topics, and that is not what my post was about.... As for your larger post above, I would love to reply to it (nay I would like to finish reading it first) when I have a couple of hours to spare and a fresh pot of coffee I personally feel that those kinds of debates are best left for PMs - but I know that you don't like that route; so I will have to respect your wishes and would be obliged to give you a thoughtful response.

Yep. It has already been discussed in this thread a few pages back. It should also be noted that the interview is a bit controversial and no audio transcript has been produced to back it up. Some Russian pro-Donbass sources had come out stating that the factual details in that account are wrong.... not denying Russian involvement per say, just pointing out incorrect information about the details of such involvement in the interview. I personally don't know what to make of it - it is certainly worth considering... but with a good bit of caution...

That's a pretty good suggestion. Although, I have yet to see any type of evidence of Russian Army actively using RPG-27/28; they can definitely produce them in massive quantities if needed. It would also be nice to see some of the "mini RPOs" (i.e. PShG) available to the Russian grunts as well. Although given how poorly RPO-A performs in game, this might have to wait

I see where you're going with this and there is certainly some validity to your argument. The fact is though, the Germans have completely owned up to the Holocaust and the denial of Nazi crimes is more severely punished there than in any other country that I can think of. Now to make this a little controversial – did the slaughter of Jews, Poles, and Russians in Western Ukraine during WW2 really hapen or is that just a Soviet (and now Russian) myth? Can anyone without access to both Russian and (West) Ukrainian side of this story make an educated decision on that? On a flip side - what about Gholodomor (sp?) – can that be accurately analyzed without having access to (Soviet) Russian and (anti-Soviet) Ukrainian reports?

I don’t find it funny. I find it righteous, which I can certainly appreciate and identify with…if not for the selective nature of it. As I’ve said before; I am not defending or supporting the Russians in this conflict – what I am claiming though is that their actions are in line with what other regional and one global power do all the time to protect their national interests. Now I know that you are quite capable of critical thinking and you don’t just blindly go with what our (or Russian, or Ukrainian) media feeds you; so that’s why I find it so difficult to see why you don’t bother contemplating this point. Then again, I don’t understand how someone of such intellectual strength and knowledge base as yourself could claim that we (US) have not violated any state’s sovereignty in recent history (as you have stated last week)… Now that I do find funny, good sir!! By the same token one can just as easily say that the Ukrainian government is waging war on its own people. Which is a line that we (US) have used over and over to remove the regimes that don’t fit our national interests… There is a flip side to this coin, and again I don’t see why you consciously choose to overlook it… With all due respect Steve, you are speaking purely with your emotions here. Whatever the reason was for that stupid baby story, which got retracted the next day btw, no one was telling the Ukrainians to kill each other (at least not any more than both sides had already dehumanized each other by that time). Please don’t take this the wrong way, but it’s not an argument you’re going to win with someone who had studied FSU foreign affairs for many years and monitors local media coverage in Russian and Ukrainian. Sorry, but I am going to play that card here: P Are you aware of a single iota of evidence that the Lugansk city hall was surrounded by anyone but local citizens? Same citizens perhaps that did not agree with the Kiev regime’s actions and stood up to it? Same citizens perhaps that were more than willing to negotiate and to compromise with the Kiev regime before they were declared lazy, drunken scum and were shelled and starved into submission? I am not excusing Russian involvement into this nor denying their responsibility to what we are seeing now, however your complete inability to recognize the irresponsible actions of Kiev government (that were pretty much given a blank check by US and Europe) makes for a very one sided (and frankly dull) argument… Our exposure to facts is limited by the information that is presented to us. The ability to read the news reports in a native language (along with being aware of cultural and historical aspects that come along with those) allows one to filter out the facts from propaganda and to reduce our availability bias based on comparing both sides of the reporting on said “facts” . That’s sort of the most basic concept of international studies and foreign policy analysis…

Well, way to ruin a party bro!! (j/k) This war (like most civil wars) is so awful that there is not much to joke about here; however the erroneous media coverage by all sides is something that we both seem to find outlandish…. Yep, we used to call that game a “broken telephone” when I was a kid… The only difference here is that the lies are not just “lost in transmission”; but purposely doctored for propaganda purposes by all sides (unfortunately our own media is no exception to this dirty information war) Yep, I agree. His “I forgive everyone” message was just that. See, here is where you and I see things differently. You seem to have a strong association with the Kiev government’s cause (which is conveniently advocated by our own media most of the time); and a strong aversion for the Russian side. I on the other hand, see all sides (US government included) as guilty of this stupid and unnecessary war; but I can definitely see the Russian perspective on this and don’t find their actions to be any more cruel and despicable than those of any other major power. Is the crucified baby BS any more of BS than the AC-Seeking MANPAD (just to use one example of many)? To me they are both equally ridiculous; but not at all surprising. Yet, you seem to have a much stronger aversion to the former rather than the later. I wonder if you would have seen things differently if you were able to browse Russian sources in their native language... Either way though, you have certainly done your homework on this and are entitled to your view… as am I for that matter.

Steve, I was being facetious. The concept of Mozgovoi being replaced by Givi is so random (even for this thread) that it does not require an intellectual debate. Luckily Kraft saw where I was going and was a good sport about it… Again I was not being serious here, so there is no need to over-analyze it. Everyone lies at war. This one is no different. Some choose to believe one side, some choose another, and few try to be balanced – none of those options are absolute… enough said! That is not an unreasonable assumption; but for lack of better evidence it is not very relevant either… Most civil wars seem to follow the Game of Thrones (“Everyone Dies”) rules; I don’t see how this one any different… I am not sure either. Mr. Simchenko definitely holds multiple records for the shortest time at the front-lines prior being sidelined by some wounds. Besides that, the ubiquitous “polish PMCs” are the repetitive unconfirmed KIA leaders on the Ukrainian side

Lol! Touche!! Then again; Givi seems to have ended up on the upper hand of that equation - he did get the honors (deserved or not) for taking the airport and he is still around... Haven't you heard the latest news? Putin is dead as well... or maybe he had a baby... tough to tell... but he is definitely up to no good. Let's wait for the "Lost Vladimir" site to come out so that we can have a definitive source of information!

Yeah, It would be a shame if Mozgovoi was replaced by Givi; because (as we all know) Givi is the undead wizard of level 5 as he has already been killed 4 times in the battles for the airport. Still better than Motorola, whose magic powers allow him to rise from the dead several times per week Although wait, there is no proof that he has been alive for the past 12 hours "as far as we know..." I wonder who the most "killed" commander on the Ukrainian side is. I am guessing Mr. Yarosh, as I have seen at least 3 or 4 reports of his death... anyone else that I am missing out?

Kaburke61, this would be my last post to you until you care invest some time and brainpower to show me your basic understanding of the subject matter. I have already spent more than enough time on this board trying to show "the flip side of the coin" to those members that actually care to hear it and to process it as part of their analysis. I absolutely would not waste a spare second of my time trying to build out an argument to someone who does not care to show any knowledge nor appreciation of what is being discussed here. How about you show me some solid facts about "Putin-bots" spewing their propaganda on this board; and maybe then I will consider engaging you in a more meaningful conversation. Till then - "peaches and luv!" (as they say down here).

I have spent plenty of time on this board building out my arguments and points. I don't need to be thrown a bone to chance nor do I particularly care to convince you of anything, let alone something that I don't believe myself. If you have a thoughtful point to make - please do so and I will be obliged to respond. Otherwise, please refer to my post #169.

The only thing that hits a nerve with me pal is a blissful ignorance, backed up by false sense of confidence. I would appreciate your thoughtful and well researched analysis; but if you chose to communicate in ambiguous one-liners, I hold my right to stand by my previous post.

Not sure who is fooling who, but I am pretty posetive on who a fool is in this thread..."I think that it is plain enough" pal...

Just out of curiosity - would you care to point out a full list Putin-bots on this board?

And what else is new here? Are there not more than enough puppet states that the major powers take protectorate and control over? Are you concerned that there is now another one now, or just that this one happens to be Russian puppet and not ours? I am not sure that I follow you here. The notion of Ukraine being a breadbasket for Europe is not particularly embraced (to put it mildly) by Europe that already has more than enough bread… The saddest days imaginable are occurring in Donbass right now and it is not due to some economic factors, but rather indiscriminate fighting that is taking place there right now… First of all, perhaps you would care to research the numbers of Kosovo Albanian civilians killed by Serbian forces vs. Donbas Civilians killed by the Ukrainian Army? Untill you try to come up with some independent and reliable source of those numbers; your argument holds no validity whatsoever. As for “fair and reasonable elections” held in the rest of Ukraine – give me a break! Are you aware of pro-Russian candidates being assaulted by armed mobs in Kiev and denied any voice in the TV debates? If that’s your version of free and fair, then by all means keep praising the Kiev regime; but don’t be surprised when the people in Donbass (and now more and more in Kharkov and Odessa) want nothing to do with this kind of “free and fair” government. As I’ve said before, I am not particularly pro-Donbass or Pro-Russian by any means. I consider all sides involved in this conflict to have “f-ed” it up majorly. However, if you only want to focus on one side of this coin and to give a blank check to the Kiev government (that is fully backed, and dare I say – puppeteered by US) – you are simply fooling yourself and none else.

You are making a lot of false assumptions here. The notion that Donbass has nothing to contribute to the world is not any more grounded than saying that Ukraine has nothing to contribute either. You (nor I) don't get to be the judges of that. As far as Ukraine is concerned, they badly need the coal, metallurgy and other industrial goods that come out of Donbass; not to mention their strategic sea ports and rail lines.... I am sure that many people would have thought that Israel would have nothing to contribute to the world at the time of their independence struggle; or most of former Yugoslav states, or the Baltics; but that is not for you or I to decide. What ultimately determines the success or failure of a separatist movement is the strength of its supporters (and outside backers) vs. the strength of Federal (if that term can be applied to Ukraine) forces (and their backers). The US Revolutionary war example was far-fetched, I'll give you that. It was simply used to illustrate a point that separatism does not need to get spurred up by genocidal policies of the "mother-country". In regards to Donbass, Kosovo is probably a much more relevant (and recent) example to follow. So are you proposing that we give back Kosovo back to Serbia? I would think not... so what makes Donbass so different?

I don't understand why a Nazi-like genocide of indigenous population is an only cause that calls for a separatist movement.... If that was the case, then our country (I am assuming that you are American) would still be a part of UK. The Donbass natives seem to have more than enough reasons to fight and to die for their cause, so your view of what they deserve is a bit irrelevant here. Your notion that the rebels are not willing to negotiate is also completely factually incorrect (and indicative of your poor knowledge of dynamics that drive this conflict). Moreover, I find your proposal that a complicated and age-long issue is best resolved with a slaughter of a weaker side to be Nazi-like on its own. I hope that I have misunderstood your point, but if not… well I just hope that you are in no position of power or authority...

Yet that was never an issue when dealing when friendly despotic regimes (i.e. the ME Kingdoms, Central American dictatorships, former SE Asian “Tigers”; etc…). It’s interesting how only our enemies have to worry about that kind of stuff – isn’t it? And it’s not like our policy makers have to worry about their own set of issues and to map out their foreign policy in 4 year terms (at best)... That presents no issues for our diplomatic friends and foes, right? That was not my original point, though. We always tend to antagonize our foes (as does any other nation); that’s just the way it is and it’s not going to change. However, it is up to foreign affairs experts to be aware of that and not to fall into those fallacies… yet we have already antagonized Putin (who was never anti-Western as much as pro-Russian) into oblivion; which now drives our foreign policy more than any practical goals. Henry Kissinger has spoken (quite brilliantly, IMHO) about this recently… Right… Now how exactly did the West (and by West we mainly mean USA – let’s be clear here) let Russia get away with murder during the Reset? Care to give any specific examples? What exactly were we doing during the reset? Were there no countries whose sovereignty we’ve violated at that same time? Do you think that the Russians did not take note of that? Again, what you are presenting is a slanted view of Russian actions as portrayed in our media. Not surprisingly – Russians see things very differently… and guess what – they have at least as strong of a case to make for Western (again let’s be clear - we are mainly talking US when we use that term) actions posing a direct threat to them and forcing them to take a defensive stance. The truth, as always is somewhere in the middle; but I find your complete dismissal of Russian perspective and their national interests to be counterproductive to any fruitful debate or educated analysis.

Yep, if only we could always have our way; and those that don't like it would be lining the bottom of the ditch. That's the kind of stuff that we want to stand for... riiiiight....

No worries bud... I certainly wish that your vision was a reality!

Hehe... No offense Kuri; but if you really believe what you have written here and not just trolling... you might be "a little late to the party". As I've said several times on this board - Geopolitics are not about doing what's right; but rather "what's right for you". The Russians play that game well, but they are still "small fish" compared to how we (US) embrace this notion.

This has already been debated on several occasions. The proponents of SOF in CMBS (myself included) are not expecting to see some SWAT-like ninjas who free hostages and clear buildings "Kill-house style". We are proposing higher trained and better concealed sniper, recon, and assault teams whose standards of training and morale go beyond what is simulated (for regular infantry units) in CM; and who use suppressed and silenced weapons making them so much more difficult to spot and to track down. I personally feel that those types of units can fit into CMBS quite organically...

That's actually a very profound observation. We (here in the West) are always told that our geo-political opponents are despotic, violent, and irrational (at best). That is something that is pretty much expected by any decent researcher of foreign affairs; and our treatment or Russia and Putin (in particular) is no different in that respect. What I fear however, is that few Westerners realize that an alternative to Putin is not some pro-Western liberal government (a-la 1990s); but much rather a more nationalistic and militant force (a-la Strelkov/Dugin/Prokhanov) that would make Putin look like a pro-Western liberal democrat. We are playing with fire when it comes to Russian political landscape, yet I don't see any visionaries in the US or EU governments to calculate the consequences of our actions.

Yep, that pretty much sums it up for me. Without a popular anti-Maidan movement in Donbass there would have been no resistance to Kiev forces; no matter how much the Russians would have wanted it (as was the case in other "supposedly" pro-Russian regions like Odessa and Kharkov). Almost everything that I've read from Donbass local observers points me to the fact that they feel absolutely no alligance and a strong degree of resentment towards Kiev governement's actions with or without Russian influence. Which again (of course) does not cancel out Russian military and political involvement into DNR and LNR affairts; nor their military support for the rebels... However let's be clear here - none of it would have been relevant if not for the local popular resistance to Kiev regime.