LUCASWILLEN05

That mght not be too much of a problem for th battles of April to early June 1944. We can already se the weaher, tempreture and ground conditions data to something likely to be suited to conditions in the spring of 1944. It would however feel much better to be able to set the correct date for he engagement and it probably would be straightforward for BF to do this having already extended Normandy to cover Market Garden. It probably would be possible for them to extend Red Thunder to cover the time frame covered starting on, say 8 April to cover the Romanian battles when they produce the Romanian army (probably as part of the next module) which also covers us for the Army Group South role in the batles of the summer of 1944.

Definately. Although personally I comnsider Zhukov's Greatest Defeat (Operation Mars) o be Glantz' best work although obviously of no possible relevance to Red Thunder.

One of David Glantz' detailed histories. Although this "forgoten battle" was slightly earlier than Bagration lasting from 8 April to 6 June 1944 much the same equpment and formations would hasve been used on both sides. Though we can set up scenarios from this period of the war in Russia it would be better if BF could actually expand the date of Red Thunder to cover the spring battles of 1944. I belief there is also a book by Rolf Hinze that covers the German side, Crucible of Combat, the latter half of which covers this and he other battles of the spring of 1944. With the Courage of Desperation: Germany's Defence of the Southern Sector of the Eastern Front 1944 - 5 (also Rolf Hinze) would be directly relevant to study of the battles fought during the period June - September 1944 on Army Group South's sector.

Pretty much. This experiment was to see what sort of results might be expected under ideal conditions in order to establish a baseline by which to judge performance under more realistic battlefield conditions. When we get on to later tests we need to know what happened under the ideal condiions in order to assess the results obtained from the more realistic "battlefield conditions" tests. What the initial test tells us is what happens under ideal conditions. Perhaps that Soviet tank company had halted for a rest, to refuel or for a pre attack briefing when they were unlucky enough to have been spotted. And it could be argued that the company commander screwed up by halting where he did, neglecting the principles of air defence.

I am not sure of the answer to this one as yet but suspect the answer is likely to be "as soon as they see a decent target" In my initial test the attacks began within a minute or two of starting. To be fair a target parked on a road in a village is pretty easy to see from the ar. Most of us have, I am sure, travelled as aircraft passengrs. f you look out of the window i is pretty easy to see parked and moving vehicles. Obviously it would be far harder to see anything in woods for example due to the tree cover. I suspect that air spotting would be a similar computational calculation to ground spotting although clearly not he same one

You are still ignoring the other half of this equation, the effects of air power on morale Even if the physical damage is not that great there is still the damage to the morale of the unit hit. Sure this will be a temporary state and will wear off after a period of time. However, if that unit gets hi by a ground attack very soon after the air strike its' performance will be degraded. The attacker hopes it will be seriously degraded An account albeit from the Battle of Kursk "Once the 169th Tank Brigadse which was operating in gront, reached the line of the Komsomolets Farm, the enemy, firing a the tanks with artillery, heavy mortars and from Panzer VI tanks dug ino th ground, began to conduct massed air attacksy JU-88 bombers and by anti tank JU-87 dive bombers with three 37mm automatic cannon. The attacks intensified in step with the brigade's further advance, and by approximately 1800 8.07.43 these attacks turned into an uninterrupted assault from the air. It is possible to judge the ferocity of theJU-97 attacks from the following fact one JU-97 vulture, damaged by our anti aircraft gunners, flew directly towards a T-70 tank and struck it with all its mass. he tank was left burning , but the crew somehow survived. As a rule , the JU-87 aircraft attacked our tanks from the rear, strikng the engine compartment with their fire (the summary of combat operations of the 2nd Tank Corp's combat operations qouted on P331Demolishing the Myth: the tank battle at Prokhorovka, Kursk JJly 1944: an operational narrative" Valeriy Zamulin

So you think two T-34s knocked out (but not burning) plus the four AA guns could be seen as any more than a mediore performance given the ideal circumstances of this initial, baseline test? With more realistic test conditions it may very well prove that the physical results will be evenless impressive. A really intense air strike may very well have a significant impact on morale By the way, a knocked out tank that is burning with onboard fuel and ammunition exploding is very likely going to be either a total write off or will at least require extensive factory or workshop repair. In thiscase however the two destroyed tanks were no burning and therefore would likely be back on line after a few days repair in the Tank Corps repair workshops

Jason you are clear that this was an initial baseline test involving stationary tanks parked on a road in a village and the AA stationed in open terrain without protection are'nt you I In other words a situation that gave the Luftwaffe as much of an advantage as they could have. Knocking out two tanks and 4 AA guns was not that great in this pretty ideal situation. Maybe a full squadron of say a dozen Stukas would have done more although one should probably organise them in two or three waves bringing the second and hird waves on as reinforcements perhaps five minutes apart. Watchng the morale effects of the strike were rather interesting. Crews seemed to be getting pretty nervous. It is not just the pysical effects of air attack we need to consider but the effect on mmorale aswell. The German tactic was to make he grond attack as immediately as possible after the Luftwaffe in order to maximise the advantage gained over an enemy who, hopefully, was still stunned afte the air assault. But it was a very fine judgement that had to be made. Too early and the Germans risked friendly fire from the Luftwaffe. Too late and the Allied defenders would have largely recovered their morale.

You cannot study the military history of,or wargame WW2 without having to consider the role of the Waffen SS. We hate what they sood for and deplore the way they often behaved but we also must acknowledge that certain SS units, in particular their Panzer and Panzer Grenadier divisions were feared and repected by Allied forces in great part because of their undoubted capability and effectiveness on the battlefield. Naturally when gaming with these units we must also bear in mind their historical culpability for war crimes. As history this is, as I am sure you are aware,, one of the most controversial issues of he military hstory of WW2. I think you will find many wargamersare very well aware of thiscontroversy andthe reasons behindit. If yu really cannot stoumach the SS you are certainly not forced to game scenarios involving them or you can choose to game the Allied side.

War criminals or at the very least well aware of war crimes they may very well jhave been. Even the Heer (regular German army) was well aware of the Holocaust. And certainly battlefield executions (war crimes) took place - he Russians were culpable of this just as much as the Germans - the war on the Russian front was a bitter and often ideological struggle right from the start and that was the nature of that war right from the very start. An uncle of mine who happens to beGerman actually fought in this theatre and, when I once asked him about his experience refused to tell me very much other than that he had been wounded as the result of a grenade attack (and showed me the scar) It was only when I was older and read Guy Sajer's book The Forgotten Soldier hat I began to realise the true horrors my uncle must have experienced and to understand why he felt the way he dd even if only alittle. Thy say you can never really understand the horror of war unless you have eperienced it for yourself and that is very probably true. And before we regard the Red Army as examples of virtue they were anything but. From the very first days they were committing brutal battlefield executionThe Germans were doing exactly the same. Who started it and where is probably impossible to say though Hitler's Commissar order may well have played a ole. The point is thiswas a particularly brutal war right from he very start. As for the Waffen SS the premiere Panzer and Panzer Grenader Divisions were some of the toughest and most battle hardened, experienced units of World War 2.War criminal they may well have been as an organisation and some individuals (such as Peiper) were most certainly convicted war criminals but these units were also, most certainly an elite fiightimng force. Not all SS units were of that calibre. Towards the end of the war there were new SSdivisions raised that were, at best, average given their performance. And there were other SS units used for anti partisa operations or simply against unarmed civillians whose performance, when thown into the front lines, performed abysmally. When we examine the performance of the SS as a fighting force with the dispassionate eye of the historian we actually start to see a much more nuanced view. I am in no way defending the SS here. The regieme they fought for was one of the most evil in history and, to say the least even the elite Waffen SS were a very long way from being angels. But, as a fighting force they were respected and feared bothbecause they were a highly trained, capable and experienced fighting force and because survival was by no means cetain for those who surrendered to them.

I agree but can't say I amm that surprised. It is the BF Modus Operandi. They know that, when we see the next module includes SS, Romanians, Hungarians, Soviet lend lease equpment in the next expansion - and I have a shrewd suspicion tht much of the above will be there, we will part with our money. It is in fact, I suggest, a pretty shrewd business policy on their part. One I can live with as long as the next module is available pretty quickly (ie a moth or two)

The tanks were lined up on a road in a village and I deliberately did not allow them to move. The purpose pf this as to set a baseline for further experimentation. In this case the Luftwaffe actually chose o go after the AA guns which were deployed in the open around the village. That AA battery was virtually wiped out in the attack. Regarding the tanks, a couple of bombs got lucky. Those tanks would probably have been repaired in a day or two anyway given that they were merely "destroyed" and were not actually burning. And the Soviets did not manage to shoot down a single Stuka. So this was ot actually all hat much of a success for a flight of four Stukas who, if anything had the odds loaded in their favour for the first experiment.

Given what BF did wih Normandy (the Waffen SS were not in Italy apart from some very small units and a brief major deplyment in the summer of 1943 which did not result in combat with the Western Allies) I wold consider it highly pronable the SS will be presen in the first module. SS Wikig were certainly heavily engaged in he Army Group Cntre Battlesand were engaged in some of the key battles such as a large counter attack near a place called #kleszczele on 23 July (Wikin formed the southern prong of the German pincer move (East Front Drama 1944 RolfHinze P275 - 283 Probably more in their divisional history Some further information canbe found in Viking Panzers (5thSS Panzer Reimental history) Looks like at leastone potential scenario around that counter attack. Even perhapsa shortcampaign

Hopefully the air boys will hit the enemy, not you. Whichmight explain why the Germans like to hit a position just before the attack but not too early otherwise the effect would wear off or too late otherwise the Luftwaffe might hit friendly forces. Which I suspect did happen on occasion.

Which, after all is what AA assets are for

[quote=The Germans, on the other hand, lost almost everybody. Only a relative handful of the 256th Infantry Division's personnel made it out of Belarus. Steve

Definately worth money e ven though there are just the scenarios that ame with the game for now. Something I suspect will change quite soon! Then BF will be adding on modules that will include other formations sch as the Waffen SS (we never see them in an iniial release) We now have AA guns that actually fire at attacking aircraft though I have yet to see onne being shot down. Some improvements to the map editor. If you like Russiamn Front 1944 onwards (BF sa they plan o finish the series of Russian Front games with Berlin. Some of the tank battle scenarios (such as Gog and Magog) are rather spectacular affairs to say the least. So yes, definately worth the $55 (just under £40) The price of a hard back book.

As does 1 My eyesight 2 The black on green interface which really is hard to see when trying to read the vehicle type information Anyway the point was the effect of the airstrike given the conditions I set for it. The Luftwaffe might well use a dozen or so aircraft for this kind of mission rather than the four I used in this initial experiment. It will be interesting to see what happes when I 1 Include more aircraft at the level of a more typical strike package. 2 Add a TRP to see if the Luftwaffe will hit where I want them to attack (even if their commander is a drug addled collector of stolen art and a fetish for hunting lodges!) 3 Remove the AA defences 4 Reinforce the AA defences

It might have been an air strike using FW-190 but the poit really was the German Luftwaffe were clearly still using the same tactic in Hugary 1944they hadbeen using in 1943. Using a different platform makes no difference to the use of the tactic. Jus the way the job was carried out. As for the claim that 2 tanks were claimed destroyed that seems reasonable. And destroyed does not always mean a burming tank. Even in game we see tanks marked as destroyed but not acrually burning wrecks as others are. W might consider the latter as total wrie offs, the former as repairable in the division workshops or back at the tank factory. As it happens in the experimental airstrike I set up the two tanks destroyed by the Stukas were, as it happens not actually burning, just "destroyed" One of these actually ended up in a bomb crater!

i may have misread as I was looking at the black print on green backgound which is rather hard to read.My only real criticism of the game design. I was he Soviet Medium AA battery anyway.

Also mini campaign type battles, agaiin with fairly modest forces lasting three or four hours allowing for plenty of manouvre and a couple of engagements. But of course your PC Specs have to be able to handle it so you probably need a machine tat can meet the hgh end specs,. Ofcourse I am sure you can still do linked battle campaigns or smaller versions on the 4 x 4kmmaps most people's PCs can probably handle. Maybe thaty is still the way to go for most of us.

Actually he Germns were still doing this sort of thing as late as December 1944 on the Russia Front From Days of Batle"German ground attack aircraft ncessantly attacked ,Homok,Ipolysagand Gyerk fom o930onwards he Soviets deployed only 18 fighter aircraft and 3 IL2s grund attack aircraft in the a\ea, In the meantime Generalleutnant Schmidt was at the command post and witnessed the German Ground attack aurraft attacking ''homok where they met heavy Soviet anti aircraft fire" P34 Norbrt Szamveber.Days of Battle We are told the airmen claimed two anks and 3 anti aircraft guns This was just prior to a large scale German atack o 19 December 1944 in Hungary This tells us that the Germans were still trying to use their previous tactics which had worked very well in 1943.However,by this time the Soviets had figured out how to deal with this defending with heavy concntrations of anti aircraft. So the Germans can still, with historical justification employ a significant number of ground attack aircraft but the Soviets will be employing large concentrations of ati airvraft guns to defend against ths tactic. So the German tactics of using say a squadron of 12dive bombers can stll be used but they cannot expect to beso effective against heavy concentrations of Soviet anti aircraft weapons. My experiment today showed he Luftwaffe to be rather less effective only knocking out 2 tanks from a Soviet tank company (4 Stukas were used in that attack and the AA fire was fairly heavy) There was a definate albeit shor lived morale effect on the Soviet tankers even though the physical destrucion against th tanks was limited.

Just set up a small air strike test. A Soviet Medium tank company set up aong a road in a village for a "rest stop" defended by 4 38mm AA guns. No tanks were moved during the air strike as I just wanted to see what happened and no TRPS were set. The German air strike was conducted by 4 Stukas with the heavy loadout option. The air strike lasted about 12 minutes before the Stukas appeared to have used all ordannance. The Luftwaffe went after the AA guns first knocking 3 f them out entirely and virtually destroying the crew of the fourth. 2 Soviet T-34s were knocked out during the course of the air attack. Observations of crew reactions showed that some of the tank crews were getting pretty nervous for a while but began to recover fairly quickly once the ar attack had effectively finished. A couple of houses in thevillage were also completely destroyed in the attack and at least one other suffered significant damage,

I would like to indulge in such megalomania but I am very doubtful my current NVIDiA graphics card (GEforce 100) would support such a huge map plus all the units that might be involved. However, if someoe could suggest a better graphics card tt might allow my PC to run games that big I would be very interested in reccomendations!

Might level of traiing be a factor there. I have never seen armoured vehicle crews pop their heads out of hatches when under fire, certainly not of their own volition. If I tell them to ope up they will take a quick look and duck back down again.