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What if the July 20th assassination attempt was a success Arado? Or any other serious attempt on his life (there were about 40 I believe). If there was no Hitler do you think some sort of a peace deal would have been possible? The people that would be offering the deal would be the ones who killed Hitler to achieve it so chances are there not going to backstab the Allies, as if they wanted to do that they would have never attempted to kill Hitler, and put their own lives on the line. Either way though what does this have to do with Hawaii?

Nupremal, have you added some victory scripts in this update?

yep level three is a mark IV. Zukkov to be honest I agree that it should be the King Tiger, but I don't think I'm going to complain about it, because it really doesn't affect the game at all. However not knowing for sure after a couple of years of playing these games it does begin to get a bit annoying, that you don't know what it is. BTW the Allies invading Europe is an opportunity to destroy them it shouldn't be something to cry about, and you were given a gift to destroy them on two fronts instead of the usual one. You must realize that when you play as the Axis you need to play with pride as you're representing Hitler and if you don't represent him good you will be shot!

Tiger. That's one of the main reasons I thought it could have been the Tiger II (King Tiger). Which would make sense if you think about it. Tiger I= level four research while Tiger II= level 5 research. Although It's still understandable that the Panther would be level five, because of its slopped armor design.

Of course Nupremal you change it right after I state it in a previous post.

Not only does it sound more sinister which I think every chance you get to make the Axis sound sinister you should take, but it's also 100% true. Hitler created wars with countries which Germany couldn't have hoped to have won, and thus when the inevitable happened he killed himself. This is just one example there are many more.

The Axis (European Axis) was finished once Kursk was over with, because after that it was one defeat after another. After Saipan Japan was doomed, but the Axis wasn’t finished in 1941 they were just signing off on there on death warrants (for the future) in that year with the invasion of the USSR, and the attack at Pearl.

I know we didn't lost at Midway, that's why I said after Midway, Guadalcanal, and the Marianas (all Japanese losses/defeats) Japans fate was doomed for defeat. Believe me I know a lot about Midway, I made a MOD about after all.

Thanks Bill I thought it was the Panther, it's just because of the size of the image being so small I wasn't sure if it could have been the King Tiger which imo is more than a deserving candidate for Germany heavy tank level 5 research. Zukkov, Your right and I just made a stupid mistake by saying B52, although if I was playing as the Allies I would be more than happy, to use B52 against the Axis, but I was wrong, and I meant to say B29. arado, That was the earliest I every got ME262 as well, the only problem was in that game I only had level 1 heavy tank research by 1942, but by the end of 43' I had level 5 heavy tank research.

Well to be honest with you arado Great Britain really didn't want war with Japan, because she wanted all hands on deck for Europe, and the Russians didn't do anything because of the situation being critical with the fight between her and Germany. From there I do think there was a chance that Japan and China could have made a peace deal, and meanwhile Canada, and Australia DOW on Japan just, because their mother country GB did. If the US didn’t have any Allies, or if the war with Germany ever got worse then what it was in Dec 41’ I do think there would have been a chance for the Allies and Japan to discuss terms, because there was simply too many countries on the line in Europe while in the Pacific Theater there was only imperial dominance of islands and land. Remember all the mother countries of the Allies where located in Europe, not Asia so if they had to make a choice between saving their homeland or saving some islands in the Pacific I think they would chose to save their homeland. However since the situation with Germany didn’t every get to that critical stage this never happened, and once Midway, Guadalcanal, and the Marianas were retaken Japan’s fate was then doomed for a decisive defeat of her armed forces.

Zukkov, I've been playing this game for a while, and well it's annoying to know that I'm not certain what this tank is. I know every other tank/bomber/fighter unit type except for that. I learned most of them by playing CMAK and CMBB. BTW the Mustang (P51) is level four advanced aircraft (the Mustang was quite a marvelous aircraft that we built and with B 52 to accompany them we made every enemy of the United States pay dearly for attacking us and going to war with us).

Is the German icon for this level a Panther tank, or is it a King Tiger? This doesn't really effect the game at all, but it's been bothering me every since I played my first SC2 game as the Germans.

Something to notice about Nupremal's mod is that the entrenchment values are +2 then original values in any other SC game. I'm not complaining at all, as I think it's interesting, and judging by your posts SeaMonkey I think you might have found this out the hard way. It definitely gives a good tactician the chance to make France a kill zone if he choices to do that. Out of curiosity is there any British presence in France?

arado, I would like to address the second part of your question first. What major operations would Japan lose out on of any importance, Aleutians, Gilbert Islands, other not necessity islands? So, I think Japan would have been better off to launch an invasion of Hawaii instead of these places. The reason I think is extremely clear, if Japan takes Hawaii the US has to use San Francisco then as her main spot for operations, and Japan also gains a vital position and one big card at any negotiation tables (if peace talks happened). As for the Amis going for Germany first instead of Japan (if Hawaii fell), all I can say is that's up to your opinion as it never happened in history so who am I to say what would've happened. Then again this whole debate right now centers on Japan taking Hawaii out and what problems she would encounter while doing this, not what the US would do afterwards, but you do bring up a good point arado in that the US might have changed her strategy if Hawaii fell.

Ludi, Do you want me to give you a hundred sources, or a thousand, because I can give you probably about a million of them if you want? BTW I've done a ton of research prior to this on this topic (Germany first) and quite frankly I have to totally disagree with everything that you said about it being Japan first. However since you've decided to end this topic discussion I won't pursue further arguing with you, as it's clear you are one of the most stubborn people out there. It's also pretty clear that the majority of other members on this forum agree with me, so I think it’s fair to say that I’ve proven my point that Hawaii shouldn't be some freakish fortress of an island to take out. Besides that the game balance already greatly favors the Allies so adding units and fortresses and whatever else you want to add would just make it even more uneven against Japan. One last thing Ludi is, I think judging by the way you've reacted to Bill trying to help you, and your general statements against this game, that you must hate this game, and therefore you may be well suited for some other game, and you shouldn't try to bash everybody for your dislike in this game. It's one thing if you don't like this game (that's perfectly fine), but when you decide to go off attacking people (Bill, Willy, me, and anybody else that doesn't share your exact viewpoint on an issue) then it's clear that there is no discussion/argument about the topic. Instead what’s really is happening is just you wanting to bring other people down with you (that's not fine).

Willy, it looks like you have a bombing raid out ahead of you lol. Jason Thanks for agreeing with me. BTW I sent you my first turn, good luck to you (although I'm sure you won't need it).

Ludi, feel free to take a look at a couple links below, you should notice that it's GERMANY FIRST, not some total war against Japan in which every US soldier, ship, aircraft, tank, etc would be concentrated on Pearl Harbor first. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe_first http://everything2.com/title/America%2527s%2520%2522Europe%2520First%2522%2520strategy%2520in%2520World%2520War%2520II http://www.history.army.mil/books/70-7_01.htm Let me know if you need any other sources to prove that it was GERMANY FIRST and NOT JAPAN FIRST.

Most of the screenshots from the early years are going to come from Tim, because I forgot in my rush to prepare allied defenses to take screenshots. However now that the war is progressing I can promise that I will begin to take some, and hopefully put them up soon.

You're forgetting too many major points. The US decided to concentrate on Germany first so they wouldn't send every naval vessel along with every soldier in America to fight at Pearl; I can assure you of that. If Japan invaded Hawaii I bet they would have sent a naval force that would be sufficient enough to actually win the battle. I'm thinking along the lines of 4-5 carriers, 4-5 battleships, 5 heavy cruisers, 5 light cruisers, 5 destroyers, a few subs, along with other light patrol boats. From there what US navy force are you mentioning that would defeat this so easily. I'm sure this size of a navy would have been able to defeat what the US would send up against it. I'm not sure why you fail to grasp the concept that if Japan decided to invade Hawaii she would have sent a HUGE force to do it. It wouldn't be 1,200 men like at Wake, but much bigger than that. Ludi, do you ever think that Japan didn't have naval dominance at Pearl, because Japan decided not to attack her? And after the day of infamy Japanese plans didn’t involve anything major for Hawaii for the rest of the war.

Hi Ludi1867, Don't worry Ludi I do play humans, and of course that does fix the problem. I'll also create a thread specific to these problems once I get to this stage again in an AI game as I'm sure whoever tries fixing this will first want to receive a turn to take a look at. As for your feelings on the problems with amphibious assaults there fairly justified, but if anyone tries incorporating that into any SC game, I bet most of us will simply refuse to play SC anymore, because the majority of us love the simplicity of this game. In truth there are two great things about this game and its predecessors, and that is simplicity (beer and pretzels game) and the immediate support of its creators/beta testers with any problems you encounter. Now to get to Hawaii. To give you a better idea on Hawaii's defenses you must first realize the difficulties the US would have with reinforcing her troops, as in the early stages of the war she had nearly no navy so naval superiority would be totally won by the Japanese. From there once Japanese forces established a beachhead they could simply reinforce themselves from Wake, Guam, Saipan, etc with few problems as they had achieved total naval superiority over the Allies at this time. Two divisions of men wouldn't be able to hold out for months on end without any reinforcements/supplies. This proves the point that if Japan wanted Pearl they could have taken it fairly easily in the early stages of the war, but from late 42' on it would be nearly impossible. As for you're comparison of the Brits taking Italy, all I have to say is that would depend on what the Germans decided to do. If they helped Italy it would have been a disaster for the Allies, if they didn't the Brits could have won fairly easily. Once in the USSR an entire Italian division surrendered to the Russians without even firing a single shot. The Italians also lost in Africa, and other area's proving that there forces were inferior to any of the Allies, or German forces in all ways.

Guys there are much bigger flaws in this game then the invasion of Hawaii being too easy to be a success. I think with the AI that should get fixed before we move on to discussing whether or not Hawaii should have better defenses or not. If however you go back, and take a look at how bad our defenses where on that island you'll see that if Japan decided to invade they would have likely of won, and I think Bill has accurately portrayed this. Now for the issues that are really beginning to bug me. First I would just like to say this is a great game, but it's clear there are still some MAJOR PROBLEMS with it. What I'm specifically referring to is that the US sends transports via the French Polynesia route to Australia with absolutely no naval escort. Then once you take Australia out, the US decides to launch an invasion of the Japanese mainland from their bases in San Francisco. This happens when the US and Canada are the last one's standing, and yet again there is absolutely no naval escort. Only this time the US amphibious units don't even use the naval loop to Hawaii, and on top of that I've even invaded the US mainland, and as long as they control San Francisco the invasion goes on and on and on and on until they either surrender or the game ends. Of course these amphibious units don't stand a chance against the Japanese navy, but it goes on and on and on. Once again great game, but I think these flaws should be fixed before we move on to discussing the defense of Hawaii.

Japanese destroyer is sunk to the bottom of the Ocean. Other then that the British are retreating all across India, but new support has arrived in the form of the 8th Army. Nothing to report on in China as I'm going to be playing a defensive battle there for as long as I can, I think I can holdout well into 44' as that's the real strength I have when I'm playing as the Allies is the ability to buy the US time in the China theater. Tim, you have to realize that I already have a pretty good idea on where you're new offensive is going. Hope you have a good vacation!

True, I guess Sept 1st-3rd are big WWII history days.

I would think the Poles would want to forget about WWII, not take pride in being the place where it all started. They literally got there you know what handed to them by the Germans.

That Transport is amazing at evading death, I've sent so many air raids along with land forces to destroy it yet it survives at strength of 1 through all of my efforts, unbelievable. I think someone has to do some work on this, because it's unreasonable that a transport can escape everything that I've thrown at it. All my attacks weren't concentrated on it when it was in a port, but at strength of 3 it should die on the ground when there is something like 4 bombing raids, 1 TAC raid, and 2 fighter raids. Other then that I hope Tim has been taking some screenshots, because to be honest I've forgotten to do that.