Fizou

No. All the men that are OK, and 25% of the WIA are eligible for the PzC OOB. 100 men OK + (0.25*20 WIA) = 100 + 5 = 105 men eligible for the PzC OOB. Only every whole number is counted. 5.99 would still only count as 5. If not performing buddy aid to those 20 WIA, they would turn on average, 25% into KIA instead. All tracked by the game. KIA and MIA are removed outright.

Oddball_E8, Did you patch the game / install a new module while still having mods in the z folder? That will cause problems like this I believe.

Thanks BFC. Good news indeed

And to clarify mine.. I do not think so, as the game will keep track of this. The return rate will be 25% higher on average for the player that uses buddy aid. I agree that a lot of factors are in play here. But to keep the campaign and the system more easy with less administration and complicated rules it can be tracked with the morale function of PzC. I'm sure that we, as we continue this campaign, will look at ways to increase a units morale as well, so that fending of a numerical superior enemy will factor in, for example. Another example could be taking a VL during an assault.

I have an other opinion. I think its critical that a unit that sees CM combat is effected by this. Not only because I find it more realistic but also because I find it more fun and interesting, giving more dynamics to the battles and the overall operation. As fatigue cant be edited as well as being disrupted etc Morale is the way to go IMO. You don't have to think of it as strict morale but as a combat effectiveness indication. Assaults are a very important in PzC, having major effects on the PzC units. To drop this out is not good IMO. That is not enough IMHO. But that's not the only thing that affects a unit after combat, so does morale, fatigue etc. If this can be tracked in some way by the morale function in PzC, that's good IMO. Yes, but 20% wont have a very big affect either as I explained in the thread in CMBN forum. A unit needs to take bigger numbers of casualties to be effected more rapidly. Otherwise they will deteriorate over time. Also.. it will make players fight in a more realistic manner IMO as they have to keep casualties down, not only to keep their unit headcount high, but to keep their morale high as well.

WIA/Incapacitated soldiers, red base, have a 25% chance/risk to turn into KIA if they don't receive buddy aid when the game ends. If they get buddy aid they wont turn into KIA. Check out the manual.. All you need to know is that red based soldiers that receive buddy aid wont turn into KIA. In other cases they stand a 25% risk to turn into KIA instead. KIA will not give you any men back and you will lose more men than you have to. Then taking into account that your soldiers performing buddy aid might die doing so is a risk that the player has to take, if he feels its worth it. The same if one sends men off to try and recover a MG or ammo. All you need to track it is the end AAR screen and a fast calculation, its not much work at all. What I (we) reduce is WIA, not KIA. You get 25% of your WIA back, giving buddy aid will increase the amount of men you get back (KIA are KIA). Not giving buddy aid will get you some men back but they risk getting counted as KIA instead. You don't need to track when buddy aid is used, the game does that for you. The one using buddy aid will make sure that his return of WIA is 25% higher than his opponent on average. The 25% of WIA return has to do with that soldiers at the end screen that have been red based or deep red based will turn up as either WIA or KIA, they wont be counted towards OK men. So a artificial number has to be used to extract something from the whole equation. As I wrote, KIA are usually as many as WIA. Getting 25% of WIA back means you get 12,5% of your overall casualties back if you treated them all with buddy aid. Not very much, it doesn't have a major effect IMO. Not conducting any buddy aid will give the other side 25% in return on average.

As USS Bucks shells lands all over the Winery, over on my LEFT, the last members still on map, conduct buddy aid to a wounded platoon member before they pull out. The Germans not pursuing fast enough lose the Rangers as they move off map. Between the trees, smoke from the USS Buck mission can be seen. The 54th minute.. As the smoke lifts, the damage dealt to the Winery is exposed. Any Germans that did stay put is sure to have taken casualties. After the last USS Buck mission finished the following minutes are uneventful as my Rangers make their way off map without any sign of the Germans. During the 58 minute the PzGren agrees to a ceasefire. Next up, the end screen AAR.

During the 51 minute.. My FO team that is directing the last mission from USS Buck runs into trouble as the enemy artillery fire is kicking up so much smoke and dust that their view over the Winery is blocked. Spotter direction indicated by a white arrow. USS Buck artillery mission indicated by red circle. The first spotting round is long, even without the smoke in the way it could not be seen.. The 52nd minute. I'm very worried that this will give the Germans all the time they need to vacate the Winery. I catch a break when the second spotting round is right on target. 30 seconds later the barrage will hit with its full effect. If the Germans vacated once the first spotting round was seen, they might still be caught in the open. At this point I have no team with eyes on target so I'm not even sure there are any Germans there. I do believe MG fire is coming from the Winery though.. Fire for effect! The 53:rd minute. USS Buck lets lose its guns for a final time. This time a heavy mission that expends the Destroyers last 68 rounds. The fireworks are just awesome to watch!

+1 Knowing that a defender never can have reinforcements takeas away a lot of the intrigue of the CM battle IMO.

20% is the fist level used in our campaign, but that will only result in a one level drop. From A to B for example. The Unit would still have high morale. A = High B = High C = Normal D = Normal E = Low F = Poor A that represents a very well trained and well lead unit would have to suffer 40% casualties to drop down to normal. Units of lesser quality will deteriate faster. As a unit is forced to keep fighting without rest or reinforcements, IMO, its natural that its morale will drop. In these game terms morale is linked to the units combat effectivenes so it shouldemt be thought of as only morale, but more as combat effectivenes. Morale is the only way to edit a unit in PzC. Fatigue cant be edited. Therfore morale has to be the way to track a units status after a CM battle if you ask me (when using PzC as the OP layer). You current suggestion noob is a lot of administration. Some people have no problem with this, others have. I look forward to your suggestion for combining headcount, fatigue and motivation roled up into one for editing a PzC units morale.

The only purpose at the moment is to gain weapons and ammo. With our house rule it also gives wounded a chance to fight another day, giving a greater incentive to performe buddy aid in a more realistic manner. You care for your men and fellow soldiers and treat them no matter if they carry important weapons or not (the situation permitting etc). The mechanics of the game dosent change KIA to WIA. It prevents WIA from becoming KIA as the game ends if you give them buddy aid. You dont need to know which men benifited from it. Only that 25% of the WIA are treated as so lightly wounded so that they are returned to active duty after the battle. By giving buddy aid you can increase this number and give your side a little better outcome in the end. 25% of WIA is not that much as KIA generaly are as many if not more. The operation can not be prolonged, its a set number of turns, fixed by the PzC scenario. It has no major effect on the operation but adds a little extra flavour that makes battles more interesting. And thats what it all comes down to. To enjoy the operation and have fun. The journey is the most importand part not the end/conclusion of the operation. We added this rule because we think its fun. If you think its a bad idea, dont adopt it.

Yes the time frame is longer but it doesn't have to do with the unit being destroyed in the time frame but combat fatigue that grows over time, this will come quicker if your unit is beat up badly. As I understand it. You cant edit the fatigue of a PzC unit. The morale on the other hand can be edited. A unit that sees heavy combat and that is beat up needs to be losing its effectiveness in some way IMO. How will you else track it? I believe that a unit that takes massive casualties, 50% or more from a single engagement have to be affected in some way. Knowing that your unit is about to be entirely wiped out, you are not being reinforced, you are kept being sent forward to engage the enemy, your morale will drop. Thats my take on it anyways. Lets see if we attract any attention

On the LEFT The Germans are on the move again. They are starting to move in on my left again. They are however to late. I dont think they will be able to catch me at this stage. A Grille on the LEFT keeps firing down on my escape. It fires on the other side of the wooded area so it has so far not been able to inflict any damage. Overview after 50 minutes of combat: Red circle: USS Buck artillery mission. Orange boxes indicates areas under artillery fire from the Axis. White text, indicates the locations of the two last WIA.

Minutes 47-50. On the LEFT: My withdrawal is going according to plans. The enemy is putting fire on this area, but they are hitting the other side of the wooded area. My men should be safe. Or so I thought.. another casualty. I'm fairly certain that the Germans doesn't have eyes on this position. Its probably only one stray round. Should I halt my men or keep going? I decide to move them forward to the buildings. If no more rounds drop during the next minute they will get going again. Another overview of the exit on my LEFT: Up on the wooded hill in the CENTER: My FO team moves up to direct one last fire mission for USS Buck. Its the Winery that is the target, for the third time in this battle. The team conduct buddy aid on a wounded Ranger as they start to call in the artillery mission. And another casualty is sustained on the center as more artillery fall. One man remains trapped here. 20 casualties sustained during this battle so far.

The intended Grille target is running towards safety.. as it fired on the move, the shot wasent very accurate. Grille shell is highlighted with a white circle, its long. In the overview blow, this team can be seen reaching the relative safety of the treeline. Overview after 46 minutes of combat: Orange circle and rectangle: Areas under fire by Axis artillery (75 mm, 81 mm and 150 mm)

No, the deduction is always done. But WIA not treated with buddy aid runs a chance turning into KIA at the end AAR screen. Treating WIA will give you a higher return. Thus an incentive to do buddy aid for other reasons than collecting ammo and weapons. Sure they will keep fighting, but their morale will slowly drain (from high down to low - where it will stop to decrease). Someone (JonS?) posted a chart showing the time of combat effectiveness before units/soldiers would need longer rest to recuperate. I tried to search for it but can find it. It will only come in affect when units sustain large amount of casualties. When a unit starts to reduce to a non effective force they will also be reduced to low morale and be less combat effective. In my view this is what is realistic. Yes on the individual level.. but as your units starts to disappear as it is being destroyed, not being reinforced, the overall effectiveness of that force will dwindle. Yes, but in this case we don´t have those reinforcements covered. Sure PzC has some reinforcements but not any big numbers for front line units. So a unit that is not reinforced with big numbers, that takes large amount of casualties, even if it is winning, will lose its morale and turn into a less effective force. Thats my firm believe anyway. A unit can still keep its high morale as long as its not taking heavy losses at any given battle. Only tracking headcount, is IMO to simple, you lose an aspect of combat that is important IMO. As we cant disrupt a unit, increase its fatigue between battles, in the PzC editor, this is the way I think works best. Btw.. all of the above, and this discussion regarding how a units "morale" or combat effectiveness would change over time or not, as it takes heavy casualties, it would be very interesting to get some grogs opinions on this. ------ The 44 to 46 minutes.. On the LEFT: My MG keeping firing at the Kubelwagens as they cross the ground over towards the Winery. This time a casualty is definitely inflicted. Another one crosses, seemingly without any loss of life. As the Kubel force has veered off, I'm ordering the small ambush detachment to start to withdraw once again. On the RIGHT: The Grille starts to put down fire on my withdrawing men. Most are out of harms way. The Germans also seem to be moving up infantry on this flank. I'm not afraid they will catch me, the question is if I should hold some men back and try to catch him running into another ambush. The Grille start to advance forward.. one of them fires while on the move..

Overview after 43 minutes of combat: Blue arrows: Allied movement Orange arrows: Axis movement I have marked, white text, the movement of Grille to the right and left. As well as the Kubelwagen force (KW force). Most of my men have reached safety. At 18 casualties the mission must be deemed a success (enemy casualties are just as high, if not higher and they have lost a valuable Grille). We are not there yet though so no time for any celebrations yet. --

The 43 minute.. On the LEFT: The Kubewagens following my withdrawal, suddenly make a 90 degree turn and head off towards the Winery. As they do so.. my MGs on the left start putting holes in them. No confirmed casualties so far. USS Buck unleashes another heavy barrage on the Germans. I hope it causes some damage. I cant see much there so its down to blind luck at this point. When I did see the IG 75 set up, I ordered the center of the barrage to be on top of them. Most shells seem to go long. Wont know for sure til after the battle what kind of results this yields. As my Rangers reach the woods in the CENTER. I was hoping this would mean they'd be safe. Instead they are greeted with more death. Here another two men goes down to a medium caliber shell. And number 18 goes down.. On my RIGHT, two Grille are advancing forward. Bad news.. the only good thing is that the further forward they move the less they will see of the wooded area. I will have to push my men further into the woods and to safety. --

The enemy bombardment keeps taking its toll on my escaping force. Three more casualties are sustained as my Rangers cross open ground to reach the woods. More disturbing news as the enemy seems to be able to see some distance into the woods. Shells are landing well into the woods. This is sure to cause more trouble for my withdrawing force. Casualty 13. Casualties 14 and 15. Overview after 42 minutes of combat: Blue arrows: Allied movement Orange arrows: Axis movement I have marked, white text, the units spotted in the images above as well as the new ambush position the Rangers are readying for the pursuers. -- View further back.. a spotting round from USS Buck strikes home. Fire for effect is called immediately, in some 30 seconds this entire area will be cratered moonscape. I no longer have anyone spotting in this area. The FO team cant see any actual units here but I'm pretty sure the IG 75 mm are there and I also hear a lot of activity from mortars and MG close by. --

As the operation progresses, yes. So far in this campaign, we have had most battles not need it. As said before, if I have a BN with the same stats I don't track casualties between individual companies. This is up to the players to decide, what detail they think should be used. Overall we are in agreement. To give buddy aid more purpose. Of course. A unit that takes 50% casualties is gonna take a morale hit whatever mission they pulled off. Just imagine seeing haft the friends in your coy get killed/wounded, that would take its toll. With the rules we are using that unit would drop two levels of morale (one level for every 20%). If it was A it would go down to C. From high to normal in CM terms. Units that take a lot of casualties will over time lose their motivation. ---- The 41 and 42 minutes.. On the LEFT: During the 41st minute we spot three Kubelwagens moving forward at high speed towards my withdrawing men on the left. The Germans being a motorized force, have ample of transportation. They will be upon me in a minute or two. To greet their pursuers, the Rangers position two teams (8 men) in the wood line with orders of short covered arcs. They will open up under 50 meters as these Germans move up to catch/block our escape. A bit further back two MGs are also set up to take care of the Kubelwagen force. The MGs have up til this point been putting fire on the Winery. Up in the CENTER. On NAI 2. We spot a mortar lobbing bombs on my units trying to pull back to the wooded area covering our exit. In the background, my escaping force is engulfed in fire and explosions. Also on NAI 2, a HMG 42 is moving up to take position an put fire on my withdrawing men. The MG42 takes cover in a crater, created earlier by USS Buck. The mortar and MG will both be targeted (area target) by MGs. I hope this will help my escaping force to some extent. --

Crews from Tanks/AC always have to be removed as they are never tracked individually, only their vehicles matter. You are wrong stating that the method we use in this campaign would give those results when treating units with different stats. Different stats needs to be tracked by them selves. With units that have the same stats I see no need for keeping individual tracking, but as soon as they differ it should be done. This can of course be handled different and is up to the participants in the campaign. Some people feel its a chore keeping track, others like my self have no problem with it at all. In our current battle I have three Ranger Coys (severely depleted), one of which have low ammo, in all other cases they are identical. Hence, I track casualties for the coy with low ammo, the other casualties doesn't matter as much and can be distributed over the other two coys. Its down to personal taste. The way we who play this campaign, choose to perceive the WIA results from a CM action, is that 25% are fit to fight and return to action. I love to have a actual reason to do buddy aid and get a reward from it. And on occasions have to take the tough decision if to do it or not, it might result in more casualties if I stay etc. A really cool addition to the battle IMO. The added calculation is not complex and takes no more than a minute or two to do. We will have to agree to disagree on that point. I think its important.

Simplicity is definately a key. We have tried to keep it simple, basically all information needed can be derived from the AAR screen once a battle is over. The following steeps are taken: 1. Did any formation exit any of its units before the 20 minute mark? If so they are treated as casualties. 2. Any units that are exited between the 20-29 minute suffer a morale drop of 2 levels. This punishes units that are forced to exit early. If coy A exit one platoon in this manner all three platoons would get the morale penalty. Both step 1 and 2 are in effect to try and make sure that only relevant battles are resolved with CM. 3. Check casualties on the AAR screen. Apply this to the PzC OOB. If several units take part the casualties between units that differ needs to be tracked. For example, German high quality troops taking casualties cant be counted as Italian low quality casualties (if there was also a Italian unit taking part of the action). But if there where two coys of PzGren of the same quality, casualties can be spread between the units. 4. 25% of the casualties (WIA) taken are removed. Treated as if not suffered and returned to duty. This makes units just a little more resiliant and mainly important to give a real incentive to carry out buddy aid (WIA not recieving buddy aid have a chance of becoming KIA instead, once the action is over). 5. If the total force suffers to many cassualties their morale will suffer. From the AAR screen add KIA, WIA, MIA and men OK and divide with casualties taken (not sure if men exited show up on the AAR screen). For every 20% casualties taken, morale drops one level. This whole process is fairly quick.

Whose pot mod is that?

During the 40th minute another explosion brings down a Ranger and my casualties are now numbering 12 men. This is escalating fast! Some of the mortar teams are moved off map. Without any 60 mm ammo they might as well get out. Overview after 40 minutes of combat: Blue arrows: Allied movement - we are now in full withdrawal in all areas. Orange arrows: Axis movement Orange boxes: Areas pounded by enemy artillery and MG fire. A: 2 casualties of 6. The four reminding men find safety at last as they reach the wooded area out of reach of the enemy direct fire assets. B: 2 casualties are inflicted here by the heavy enemy artillery barrage. C: The Grille that was knocked out earlier during the engagement.

The 39 and 40 minutes.. In the CENTER.. As the 39 minute is kicking off I spot Grenadiers moving up over the left side of NAI (the enemy right). They are closing in on my escaping force. My withdrawal in the center is going slow and the enemy has soon trained 81 mm, 75 mm, 150 mm and MG fire on the brush covered area giving best concealment. I will try to reroute my men as they head towards safety. The Germans will make us pay for attacking so boldly.. Another Ranger is KIA after a 150 mm Grille shell hits home. Again, Im lucky that it only causes one casualty. On the other side of the hill I sustain another KIA as the Grille fires again. The 11th casualty inflicted, again by a Grille. The central escape route is turning into an inferno as a variety of enemy ordinance is dropping from the sky. Another 150 mm shell explodes in close proximity to my Rangers. As the barrage continues the PzGrenadiers send more men to reinforce the Winery.